Leigh - 2023-12-17, 5.12 PM
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Casey: [00:00:00] Hi there. Welcome back to the purpose map podcast. I'm Casey Bergland, your host, founder of worthy and well, and co author of the mind body way book narrator of the audio book. Have you read it or listened to it yet? It's pretty great. If I do say so myself. Before I get into introducing today's guest, I'd like to let you know that the doors for the let your body lead facilitator training are opening soon, depending on when you're listening this, they might already be open for early enrollment.
So early enrollment. For the 2024 cohort is happening in December of 2023. We just wrapped up our nine month journey with the 2023 participants and boy, were there some big transformations in the group throughout the nine months. I'm so excited to be offering this. incredible [00:01:00] program again next year and you have a chance to hop into it, say yes to yourself and receive some high value bonuses when you sign up early.
So the details are in the show notes if you'd like to check out the program and learn more. Today's guest is Leah Lake. She is the queen of healthy relationships. I met Leah A few years ago, probably five years ago and instantly connected with the way in which she taught about healthy relationships. It felt empowering to me.
It felt like it kept me in a position of trusting my own authority. It helped me to not, settle in relationship and hold out for frankly, my King. So Leah is here to talk more about healthy relationships. She has for years worked with women to help with their discernment around. How to become a healthy relationship partner and how to invite a healthy relationship partner into their lives.
And you'll see soon at the [00:02:00] start of this episode, she kicks off by saying, you know, I'm really feeling this call to help men. And that's where we begin. If you know me well, you know my love of men and my love of supporting men through transformational processes. And I see time and time again that sometimes we misunderstand each other in relationship.
And it takes two to tango. And so I love what we get into in this episode. I'll let you jump right in and join in on our conversation. And I can't wait to check in with you
Leigha Lake: at the end. I just feel that there's this missing, uh, or there's an opportunity to help men. Yeah. And I'm feeling it more, like today I'm like, okay, I, this is, this need needs to be filled and I know how to do it.
Casey: Leah, I love you. Tell me about this sense that you're feeling inside of yourself, that there's an opportunity to help men. Why do you feel like [00:03:00] men are underserved? And why do you feel like you're feeling this call to support them? So having worked
Leigha Lake: with thousands of women and heard the same thing over and over and over, and women are looking for their match, their energetic match, and men are not, either they lack the awareness or they, I think it's more about awareness.
It could be. And of course, like there's the spectrum of emotional maturity and emotional unavailability and all of that. But for men who want a relationship, they just need a little bit
Casey: of help getting to the table. I love this. I love, okay, I love that I hit record and that I said, there'll be a natural starting point, but like, tell me how you are.
And that the first thing that came out of your mouth after not having connected for a bit of time, you and I was that you're feeling this need to support men. And I think that's [00:04:00] important. And I think it's here tapping your shoulder for a reason. And I just want to like validate and amplify that sense in you, because I am feeling the same thing and I am finding that my work with men, right now my one on one clients are men, is so fulfilling and so needed and like, oh, I just love men and men deserve to be like supported and to have beautiful fulfilling relationships and to like have their gorgeousness amplified and also their Bullshit called out in a loving way.
Um, so I trust that that is the place that we are starting today. Okay. Yes. Yes.
Leigha Lake: It's like, you know, like let's, let me just help
Casey: you help yourself. What do you see as it relates to men? You, you mentioned that there's just like, they just need [00:05:00] a little bit of help. Like you said, you work, you've worked with thousands of women who.
Are seeking their energetic match, seeking an empowered, healthy man to partner with. And you're noticing that men just need a little bit of help. So if you could name, like, tell me more about that. What is the thing that you see that you feel you could support men with?
Leigha Lake: Okay. Okay. I'm just going to back it up a little bit because I just recently had this conversation because someone was.
Uh, saying, well, don't you need to help women not self sabotage? And it's like, well, yes, but not in the way that you think, because the women who find me have been doing inner work for years, and they're more likely to give too much benefit of the doubt, overcompensate for what's not theirs, because they wanted to work so much with a man.
So we gotta get a woman back in her own, I call it life raft. And then for a man to feel confident, this is where the little help [00:06:00] is with men to feel confident that they know exactly what they're doing from the first, let's say it's online dating, first message, first date for like, so that they know that confidence will shine through, but then they can also learn to recognize.
Who's a healthy relationship partner for them, but they're not, winging it or trying to guess what the best thing they should do is that type of thing.
Casey: Got it. Yeah. I think there needs to be more, integrated spaces for men and women to receive the same support. You know, I'm just thinking about the things that I know that you have taught to women, I'm having a moment right now where I'm like, um, of course, even even you teaching what you teach to women to men would automatically help men.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned something just moments ago, a tool that you use called the life raft, getting women back in their own life raft. Can you [00:07:00] slow that down and share a little bit more about that? And I guess I just want to, for the listener, whether you're a man or a woman, listen up, this is for you.
Okay. Okay.
Leigha Lake: Yes. So I teach women that they have their own life raft and so does everybody else. So what does that mean? Like we are responsible for our own life rafts. This means like the very basics of what do we need to do to feel balanced every day, like sleeping, how much sleep do we need at what, how much, you know, our nutrition, our water, our exercise, our stress levels.
I'm coming to the table as. Basically, whole and balanced as possible. And that's just the basics. And then learning how to recognize what's healthy and what's not out in the world. So there's, there's a lot that goes into this life raft, but once a woman understands and can recognize what's healthy and what's not, then her life raft can feel calm and [00:08:00] stable.
Um, and it's going to be easy for her to recognize another life raft, AKA person coming up to her. If she starts to feel, you know, if we're in the water, if there's like waves or emotional turmoil, you can really feel that without even someone saying a word, you're, you are that in tune with how you feel.
And so women are easily recognizing. If a man is able to meet them at their level by tuning
Casey: into their life raft. Yeah. One of the things I love about your teachings, Leah, is that. You know, the word that comes to me to describe what you teach is discernment from a clear and pure space. So what I'm hearing you say here is like, hey, they're beautiful, empowered, visionary woman who's done a lot of healing.
Let's not forget that you've done a lot of healing and that you actually know [00:09:00] yourself and let's help you kind of just stand tall in your life raft and stay in it and not get distracted by turning in on yourself and thinking it's all your fault that you're not with your loved ones. Partner beloved partner yet, right?
That's like step one, right? Yes. Yes. You just said that so perfectly. This is what we do together. I feel like ever since we met, I, I can like receive you and take you in and then like articulate it in a different way. And I love that you just then receive it. And we kind of riff back and forth, but like, that's what I'm hearing you say is like step one.
Remember that you're a badass, get in your life raft, you're already healed enough, you don't need to be on a healing hamster wheel, just like, be yourself. And from that pure, calm, beautiful space, then you can discern If he's right for you, or if he's not by understanding what's healthy and what's not. And so what I love about you in a [00:10:00] world where we're all sort of like, I shouldn't, I shouldn't generalize like that, but like confused about if there's the right person out there for us, or we're like insecure about, Oh, maybe it's me.
Maybe I need to do more work. You're sort of like, let's simplify this for you. Here's step one, here's step two. So, step one, get in your life raft, know what you need to be a whole, healthy human being. And, little clue, you probably already know and don't need to do a lot of work to get back in your life raft.
Right? Yes,
Leigha Lake: exactly. I, I love that you, um, brought that up again, which is that most women have done a lot of healing and inner work and they're incredibly self aware and, and in fact, hyper aware that it's, it can be to their detriment. So. If you're already self aware, you're like, you're 99 percent there. So then comes in the discernment and now it's not what's [00:11:00] wrong with you because you don't need to be perfect and neither does a man, but you, your body will know your body will tell
Casey: you.
Yeah. I'm just loving that. Embodiment is key to everything. I'm just loving how I'm, I'm feeling validated more and more around my work around embodiment, how so many more people are talking about how embodiment, and Trusting yourself is really the actual key, right? You know, like learning how to sense and trust your body and your own intuition.
Like women are naturally biologically, like intuitive, more intuitive. And I feel like we're in this era of, getting out of the phase of gaslighting ourselves and gaslighting our own intuition and actually just like working with it and trusting it and letting it be the superpower that it's meant to be.
Yes.
Leigha Lake: Yes. That. That is exactly it. And while I do a [00:12:00] help, I help women attract the right man. First and foremost, I'm helping them learn how to avoid the wrong man through trusting themselves.
Casey: Yeah. What are some signs of the wrong man? And I recognize the binary nature of this conversation. And yeah, there may be more nuance.
And also I think what I love about you, Leah, is you make it clear. What are the signs that you support women with understanding, um, so that they can avoid Uh, unhealthy imbalanced relationships with men. And again, obviously this is for you, man, if you're listening.
Leigha Lake: Yes. Okay. So just. If I back it up a little bit, my background is the masculine feminine energy, and I have moved away from that because it was.
too much of a pendulum [00:13:00] and we're moving into wholeness and integration. So helping women learn to recognize the wrong man. So if a woman is in her life raft and she feels herself and her energy dipping down to help a man, she's moving out of her life raft. And what that looks like is if, a man's Energy, like if he's not, if he doesn't know how to message or call or text or ask her out on a date or just move things forward, these things are very, very easy.
Calling, texting and making a plan are, it can't get any easier.
Casey: So thank you.
Leigha Lake: So yes, if a man can't do that in the beginning, then he's not going to be able to do the harder things. Later on in the relationship, he will, it will cause a woman to pull him and I call this a surfer archetype, pull him into her life [00:14:00] raft, and then she has all the pressure of the relationship on her if it's going to go
Casey: anywhere.
Right. And for a woman who's done a lot of, you know, healing or inner work, she's maybe used to that because she's used to maybe some of her trauma is like doing the work for other people. Maybe there's some codependent behaviors that make her comfortable in the space of helping others, but then it leaves her in a place of being unfulfilled in a relationship because she's not met her equal.
Would you say that? It's true. Yes.
Leigha Lake: And this idea that, it's easy for her to do it. It's, it's really kind of subconscious, but yeah, she's used to doing it. It's easy for her to do it. And, Because a man in, in typically, it's funny because this is very predictable. And so I don't want to like stereotype
Casey: it also, like I have,
Leigha Lake: I have yet to find [00:15:00] that it's not true.
And if I find it's not true, then I'll stop saying it, but it's true. So this man who a woman feels like she needs to help, like he's very charismatic. He has so many of the things that she's looking for, but he just can't quite. Get past himself to move the relationship forward. This is the kryptonite to all high achieving women.
This man right here.
Casey: I've dated him. I've dated him, Leah. I know. He's so charming.
Leigha Lake: So charming. And he, you know, he wants to. And he says he wants to. But he just can't quite. Yes. And so on the other side of the life raft is more of the seducer type man who most high achieving women can recognize him right away.
He comes in and goes out really fast. So there's not a lot of investment, but there is, there can be a lot of devastation and heartbreak because women [00:16:00] will often turn in on themselves because of this man wondering what they did wrong because he was so into them. And then he wasn't.
Casey: So that's part of the, the quality or the characteristic of this seducer type is it's like full on and then it's off.
Yep,
Leigha Lake: full on and then it's off. And then a woman feels like it was her fault. She must have done something. And then she searches all this relationship advice that tells her she wasn't feminine enough. She wasn't an energetic match. She needs more healing and down the spiral she goes.
Casey: Right. Okay. I hope people are listening up because I can already sense them seeing themselves in these like archetypal situations.
And I don't know. I love that you said before how, you know, you don't want to be stereotypical and you've also worked with thousands of high achieving women. And [00:17:00] If this is ever proven to be untrue, you'll change your thought about it. If there's one thing I know about you is you're constantly evolving your thinking around how things are as it relates to healthy relationships.
So I like trust you in that. And also part of what like makes this simplified and easier wisdom for women to like connect with, especially visionary high achieving women is the fact that you can find these patterns and name the archetypes and sort of simplify, So that one can have a quick awareness of what's happening.
Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Just instant. Right. So. You named this, this type of man that you just shared about the seducer, and what was the name of the type of man who, uh, the first kind of type that you spoke of?
Leigha Lake: Okay, yeah, so I have three archetypes of men that women will encounter while they're dating, and so I have the seducer.
So he's more on the wounded masculine. This is a [00:18:00] spectrum by the way. So we have the seducer and then on the left hand side, we have the surfer. So he's more of the wounded feminine, which is a little, he's very, very slippery. And then the integrated whole man is the sailor. And he's the one that, women are learning how to recognize.
They're learning how to recognize all of them, but to know that when you're with a sailor. You only want to be dating someone who is healthy past the first three dates. And you can easily tell. So this is my elevated dating method. Learn to recognize a healthy, empowered man in three dates or less.
Casey: Tell me more.
Yes.
Leigha Lake: Okay. So it is very, once you understand these archetypes and the energy that they bring to the table and your energy is calm and stable. You can recognize them within the first message, the first phone call, the first date. And it rarely, if a woman makes it past three dates, [00:19:00] he is most likely a sailor because her discernment is so in tune.
And it's not me telling women, okay, this man's healthy. This man, it's actually a woman learning to trust herself because her body is telling her.
Casey: Right. So how does she feel internally when, when she's with a sailor
Leigha Lake: man? So when I'm sailor, his life raft comes up next to yours, it feels refreshing. It feels normal.
It feels exciting, yet like home.
Casey: Oh, I know what this feels like, Leah. I'm having this moment just like speaking with you from this perspective versus my single life. Perspective, which like you've been in my world since 2019 and we've been in connection and in friendship, um, and have talked a [00:20:00] lot about like dating and masculine and feminine, and then also like, just like being integrated in whole.
And so most of my conversations with you have been from the perspective of being your ideal client in many ways, a high achieving, empowered woman seeking. And a partner who's an energetic fit and like. I don't know if I do say so myself, I think I've done a pretty good job in the dating process of discernment, you know, like I think I've been pretty quick to be like, uh, nope, I'm going to keep living my life.
Nope. I'm going to keep living my life. Oh, I'm excited about this person. Ooh, day two. Nope. I'm going to keep living my life, you know, and I'm like, grateful for that. I'm grateful for the, Nope. Like not settling and going in this sort of like whirlwind and maybe I've had one or two of those in the last like few years and I've always like messaged you being like, here's what's going on.
What do I make of this? You know, but it's like, really, this is the first time connecting with [00:21:00] you in this way from a place of like, huh, I got my sailor. He feels like home. I'm refreshed. I feel grounded in my body. When things come up that are like, Ooh, that didn't feel something. Something happened inside me that shifted my energy in relationship.
I like Can share it and then feel more deeply connected, more refreshed, more at home, after. Versus like, on a spin of like, what am I doing wrong here? And I have more work to do, you know? Yes!
Leigha Lake: Oh! I love this for you so much. Like, I could not love it more. It's, it's
Casey: happened for you. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that.
And I love, I love how excited you get. I know this isn't just true for me. I love how excited you get and it just speaks to your passion around this work when women meet the sailor archetype, you know, [00:22:00] or when they say no and choose themselves and choose their intuition as they come across the seducer or surfer types.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious, just even based on that, like, why do you care? I want to get back to some of your great wisdom, but I also like, think it's important to have a sense of like, why are you in this work anyway? And why does it light you up so much that people are in healthy relationships? I just
Leigha Lake: think women tolerate too much
Casey: BS.
I agree.
Leigha Lake: And, and they don't have to, and I have very high standards, my husband and I have been together almost 12 years, it'll be 12 years in February, and he. Constantly meets me at my level. And so same, if there's something coming up, I share it. We it's easily worked through and it's, I think it's the [00:23:00] legendary that we all desire when we desire a relationship, it's being with the sailor, like you get to have that.
And if you're with a surfer or seducer. Women have to work so incredibly hard and it will never be the relationship they, they want it to be. That they deserve to have it be.
Casey: Yeah. Yeah, it's super interesting how, what's coming to me right now is I'm thinking about how obviously your, your kind of ideal client archetype is a empowered woman who's done a lot of healing already, who has a certain level of self awareness, and who is seeking a man.
So, who is seeking this, that type of relationship. And I am curious in. Gay relationships or, you know, relationships among non binary people or people who identify [00:24:00] differently. If you feel like this wisdom applies. I do think so.
Leigha Lake: Because people show, can show, people show you who they are. And they're either going to bring more calmness to your life or an add to your life or they're going to bring more drama.
True.
Casey: Yeah. And even I'm thinking about your shift away from speaking to masculine feminine energy and teaching from a place of like integrated humans attracting another integrated human, like attracting the energetic equal. I would imagine that that wisdom translates across many different types of relationship.
dynamics, regardless of sexuality. Yeah.
Leigha Lake: Yeah. It, you know, there's such an emphasis right now in the relationship culture about [00:25:00] polarity and the masculine and feminine energies. And once you're with a healthy relationship partner and you're coming to the table. As you know, a whole relation, a whole healthy person, you know, and without needing to be perfect, then all of that, these rules and guidelines fall away and you get to just show up as you
Casey: tell me about the part when you say not needing to be perfect.
Like, what does that mean to you? What, what, what is, I feel like, why is that coming to me? I feel like the discernment around What is, uh, sort of an imperfect moment that can be dealt with in a healthy relationship versus a unhealthy relationship? Like, it feels like there's nuance around that. Like, what do you mean when you say without having to be perfect?
What would it look like to be in healthy relationship and not have to be perfect and still be [00:26:00] working through things in a healthy way? Oh my gosh, Casey. This is
Leigha Lake: a brilliant question. So good. I don't
Casey: think anyone's ever asked me this. Well, count on me, count on me, Leah, to just like get to it.
Leigha Lake: Okay. So I think a lot of high achieving women also have this perfectionistic way of doing things and put a lot of pressure on themselves to show up a certain way.
And if we don't, we can feel a or guilt. Around not being who we, you know, this person, like if we are too emotional or we get triggered or we're not, we feel like we're not being reasonable or it's like, so for us. We get to have our emotions and we get to feel the way that we feel, even if it's not pretty, even if it gets messy and, um, and to learn how to accept that for ourselves, and [00:27:00] then learn like what, you know, if we accidentally put it in our partner's lab to learn what that looks like, and that's a You know, a growing process in and of itself.
But for a man, what does it mean when he's not perfect? It means that if he says something that triggers you or, you know, rubs you the wrong way, it's about having a conversation around it versus just labeling him as not being healthy. I think a conversation is always warranted communication, um, before.
Making up a decision, making a decision is so necessary. And, um, because so what happens is women get the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. In the first initial stages of dating. And they need to give the benefit of the doubt once they're with a healthy man on the other side of the relationship. Has their best interests in mind and wants her to be happy and that [00:28:00] that's driving most of his actions and, and that he's coming from a good place.
And so if he seems to fall short, Every once in a while, Then we can give
Casey: him a break. Wow, Leah, you're speaking to me right now, you know, like, um, without sharing too much just last night, we had this conversation where something came up that was sort of like, Oh, that's surprising to me. And I felt it in my body.
And then I felt some emotions come up around it. And I named those emotions and stuff. Yeah. Naturally, he felt a little bit defensive at first. And then we sat in that space and something softened and then he completely stepped into empathy and validated my feelings and was like, I can imagine why you would feel this way, that way, the other way.
And I was like, yeah. And for me, like, I love you, you know, like I, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going [00:29:00] anywhere. And I am glad that we can talk about this. Right. And it wasn't, it wasn't fully resolved. You know, we've had this experience before a couple of times that like where we almost immediately resolved it and we were like, wow, I feel even more deeply connected to you.
I feel even more committed to you. I'm just like, Oh God, you're the best. Thank you for communicating with me that way. We've had a couple things that have come up like little things really that. You know, trigger something because of a past relationship or whatever, you never know what, what might trigger someone based on their life up until that point.
Right. And. In those moments, we've almost like immediately transmuted that like tense energy into something that's more deeply connected through the vulnerability of the conversation and the emotional maturity speaking about it. Anyway, we had this thing last night where, that started to happen and it didn't feel [00:30:00] complete.
And also, you know, he was in a sort of under resourced place. I hadn't slept. As much as he needed to and communicated that and I was like, okay, let's just like, pause and come back to this and then. You know, I, I sort of process things pretty quickly, but I woke up this morning with like, Oh, I think this is the root of my thing.
And I messaged him and was like, I'm recording a couple of podcast episodes, and I'm hoping that we can connect after that to. Talk more about what happened last night. Like, how does that feel? And he responded back with like, Of course, like, I can't wait, and let me know when you're free. And there's this container that's set for this type of communication.
And to me, that just feels so healthy, and I'm nervous about it. You know, there's, I'm not like perfectly solid and I trust that through being in the connection that my [00:31:00] imperfect part can still be there and have space held for it and he's not gonna like leave or freak out or get angry, which I've had that experience in the past, right?
So every time that, uh, He doesn't leave and doesn't like blow up. I'm thinking about the blowups that happened with the, um, sailor type or the seducer type. Let me think. I think that typically
Leigha Lake: not the sailor, but the more seducer maybe even. Yeah,
Casey: or sorry surfer. Yeah, I named that wrong, but I'm thinking about being in relationship in the past where it wasn't safe for me to be imperfect with my emotions because it could spark this like angry outburst and I would literally like feel scared.
Like that's not okay. Right. Yes. So, I think maybe that's an example. Does that align with sort of what you're talking about?
Leigha Lake: Absolutely. That, yeah, something came up and you get to talk about it [00:32:00] and, and you get to go deeper into the connection. That typically is always the outcome. You get closer into the intimacy.
Casey: Mm hmm. With a healthy man. Mm hmm. I love it. Okay, Leah, I hope you're open to this, but I want to pull out your wisdom as it relates to supporting men. Based on the foundation you just gave us, as it relates to what you teach women and these archetypes that you see in men, I'm wondering if we can get somewhere as it relates to like what would be really helpful for men.
Are you open to that? I would love that. Yes. Okay. And so of course this is like, you know, you haven't already necessarily created like the frameworks, et cetera, that you would give to men outside of what you already teach women. But I'm curious, what would you share to a man who is already a sailor archetype?
[00:33:00] To help him find the person of his dreams because I'm just thinking about my one on one clients who are all men, you know, and a couple of them are like coming out of past relationships and are sort of like also doing their work of of setting standards for themselves and like being a healthy relationship partner and they're wanting a healthy relationship.
So someone who already like mostly embodies the qualities of the sailor, what would you say to him to support him in attracting a healthy relationship partner who's Okay. Okay. I
Leigha Lake: love it. So first off, Just to set the, the foundation here, women are looking for basically a, where's Waldo
Casey: on planet earth.
And I love you. This is so true. So if a
Leigha Lake: healthy man is looking for a woman, it's [00:34:00] like, okay, let's just like, he has his pick basically. So it would, a lot of. Women are online dating. I know there are not a lot of, um, successful men online dating. It's a lot of low effort. That's more of the seducer and surfers that women's that causes women to get off of online dating because it can feel toxic to them.
So if you are a healthy man showing up in the online dating space, it's, this will be very easy. But first of all, you want to move
Casey: with discernment and
Leigha Lake: observing as well. And so what I would have you do is what I would have a man do is look, you know, go through the, some profiles, go with your gut and, and message, just message women like something, like, Hey, um, I noticed this in your profile that looks really interesting and ask her a question.[00:35:00]
And see how she responds. It's this easy. See how she responds. Does she ask you a question back? This is like signs of a healthy relationship partner.
Casey: Does
Leigha Lake: someone know how to keep that conversation going? Um, then. You want to ask her a few more questions. You want to message maybe maybe that day, maybe the next day, depending on if you feel a natural connection, then you're going to want to get her phone number.
You're going to want to find a way to speak with her, whether it's staying on the app, whatever. The app is and then after the conversation you ask her out on a date if you're feeling a natural connection and you want to move to the date and if you're short on cash, do something that's not very, you know, expensive or something that's going to cause you to feel financial strain, but do something and keep it to about 45 minutes.[00:36:00]
Casey: Wow. Interesting. Yes. Why do you say that?
Leigha Lake: Because too many people create imaginary relationships with a long date. Wow. I mean, what, what, what, what's
Casey: your experience been? Um, that's probably true.
Leigha Lake: This is for online dating.
Casey: Yeah. Right. I mean, I'm I was like, fuck online dating. I'm out, you know? So that says something about my experience of online dating and, and I don't think it had to be that way.
And I, my intuition and my body always knew that I should just be living my life out in the world and that I meet people everywhere. So that was coming from my body wisdom to get off of online dating. But from the question you just asked, I've definitely. I've [00:37:00] definitely had some epic first dates that fizzle really quick that go from like online dating to epic first date, to being disappointed.
Yeah,
Leigha Lake: yes, yes, exactly. And it's a really easy way to burn yourself out. If a man is doing the pursuing, which is what I want men to be doing, then if he's moving things to the first date and, and he's not feeling the connection, he's not going to want to do that very much. So we need to keep, um, keep it so simple that it's easy to do while also still being engaged.
Casey: Got it. I love that actually, you know, usually I have resistance to some like cut and dry like 45 minutes, you know, like, and obviously you're, you're making it simpler and setting guidelines and your, your rationale behind that makes perfect sense. And even when I [00:38:00] think about my experience online dating, I burnt out.
almost every time. I would like not online date, not online date, not online date, be like, oh, okay, like maybe he's there. In other words, for me, I would go against my intuition that that wasn't my path. I would go against my intuition, go back on online dating, and then go on, um, I don't know too many epic first dates where I'm not clear when it's going to end.
So for me, there's a safety around knowing how much time we're going to spend together. And I've definitely, whoa, I'm thinking about one person in particular where he just like wanted the lunch to turn into like a walk to turn into. And I felt badly about being like, you know, like I need to go home. And then it turned me off because basically he was.
The surfer or the seducer type, you know? And so it's super interesting to [00:39:00] reflect on that, how I felt like I wasn't taken care of. My time wasn't respected. I wasn't, uh, supported in getting home on time for my next engagement. And I didn't want to go on another date. Okay.
Leigha Lake: Yes. Yes. So I do have these guidelines, but also, you know, it, there's no hard rules around this.
So if a man's really enjoying himself with a woman and it seems to be reciprocated and he decides to like Yeah. Prolong the date or do something else, right? It's really, uh, it's more about learning how learning. To discern a healthy relationship partner, feeling the connection, trusting yourself without getting too emotionally involved in the process.
Casey: Wow, that feels like a key point. Say a little bit more about that. Why is it important to not get too emotionally involved in the process? Because
Leigha Lake: it's I think a lot of [00:40:00] people approach dating as like this straight line when actually they're like 1000
Casey: dead ends. Wow, say more. Right, there's 1000
Leigha Lake: dead ends.
And if you're not anticipating the 1000 dead ends, you're gonna burn out, you're gonna think there's no way out.
Casey: That resonates that hits that hits. Okay. Okay. Keep going. So, okay. Okay. We're talking to a, sailor archetype, a healthy integrated man. Basically, if you're a healthy integrated man, women are looking for you.
Yeah. That's what I heard you say. And then like, You know, if you're online dating show interest in her profile, ask a question. Does she respond back? How do you feel in your body? If you feel a connection, take it to a date. Don't let the date be too long because that might create burnout for you or the other person.
And both of you might create stories in your minds about what this relationship is at the very beginning. Is that what I'm hearing? [00:41:00]
Leigha Lake: Exactly, exactly. So some things for men not to do, don't text or message for a Message her with 24, 36 hours, get on the phone on the phone at the end, plan a date to meet up.
If there's a connection, keep the flow. There's a very steady cadence of moving forward that you want to keep. Otherwise women
Casey: do not feel safe. True. That feels true for me. That hits. Yes. Okay. So what happens after that?
Leigha Lake: So after the first date, so here's what I know about men. Women are always looking for the future to see way down, way far down the road.
And men are thinking that was fun. Let's do it again. That was fun. Let's do it again. And so if women can have this awareness that men think that was fun, let's do it again. They can stay behind a man [00:42:00] emotionally and let him move things forward. So for a man, if he knows that women are thinking about the future, just to have that awareness in the back of his head, that if he's, um, not consistent in calling planning dates.
Then she's going to think that he doesn't know, like, he doesn't know what he's doing.
Casey: Right. I can't wait for the single man in my life to listen to this podcast episode. It's just like, it's going to be so good. Anyway, that's an aside. Keep going. Okay. So.
Leigha Lake: It really is simple for men. Once they have this like roadmap, once they know what to do, because women aren't expecting healthy, women are not expecting unreasonable things.
They just want a man who texts them good morning or good night. If they're not [00:43:00] living together, checking in once or twice a day. Not more than that.
Casey: Um,
Leigha Lake: a man who calls a man who sets up dates, a man who thinks about the future, a man who's, um, you know, wise with his money, a man who takes responsibility for his actions, a man with integrity and honor, like these basic, um, I say basic, but also very rare qualities.
Women are looking for these. And if you are a healthy man, you have them already. And you have, like, so many women to choose
Casey: from. Yes. Wow. When I hear you say that, there's like, a couple things that happen in my own mind is like, and I hate to, I hate to say this, and I'm just going to not filter, like, it feels like a low [00:44:00] bar.
That's actually not a low bar. It just feels like simpler than we make it and I wonder in the world of dating and dating advice, how the complexity keeps people from forgetting foundational wisdom of healthy relationships. And I think that's what you're bringing back to the table. I don't want to call it.
I take that back. I take the low bar comment back because that implies this like judgment on. The value of foundational elements. They're important and they are rare and they're hard to find. Like I got so frustrated dating where I'm like, gosh, you can't even just like ask me on another date. You know, without like in a way that feels like there's a cadence to it or it feels natural. The part of me that maybe would turn in on myself would be like, Oh, it's my anxious attachment style that makes him want to want makes me want him to text me back.
But it's like, [00:45:00] all I want is a text back. And like, I don't need to be messaging nonstop every day. All I want is a couple texts because frankly, I like podcasts to record and people to go help. So like as a, as a, like an ambitious woman, it's like, I have my own life. I just want to know when our next date is and have a time set up and have an idea of what to wear.
Yes,
Leigha Lake: yes, yes, exactly. So that security, women are looking for that security and they, and
Casey: I don't know how it got lost. What happened? That's another podcast episode. Okay, let's move on. Are we ready to move on from the sailor who, the person who's already a sailor, like, what he can do to, like, really call in the woman of his dreams?
And I guess maybe one thing I'll add, and you tell me if this feels true, is, wait until you find it. Hmm. Like don't settle. Yes. You know, trust [00:46:00] yourself enough that it's out there.
Leigha Lake: Yeah. And I mean, women have their red flags too. So that's another, I would want, I want to teach men how to, you know, catch the red flag so they don't end up down the road, miserable and with a woman who's not happy no matter what, or, you know, there's just so many outcomes that can happen if a man dismisses the red flags because he's so.
Agreeable or, you know, wants to make a woman happy. And
Casey: yeah. Riff with me just top of head, top of your head, like a couple of those red flags. What are maybe like flags to watch for as a man in women that you're dating?
Leigha Lake: Okay. Entitlement with money. Ooh. What do you mean? So there are women who, and I hear them and I want to be treated like a queen, like I shouldn't be treated like a queen.
And it's like, yes. Absolutely, you should. But that does not mean you're entitled [00:47:00] to a man's money, which, um, as women get older, so if a woman, let's just say a woman wants to go out to eat, um, she likes to go out multiple times a week and he would prefer to stay in because he feels like it's an excessive, uh, it's excessive spending.
But she, So he's like, okay, we'll pay 50 50. I'll pay this time you pay next time. So he's compromising, but that doesn't feel good to her. She wants him to pay all the time. Okay.
Casey: That's a red flag.
Leigha Lake: Why? Because if he wanted to go out multiple times a week and she wanted, and she had the money, but she wanted to stay in and he's like, well, I want to go out and he wants her to pay 50 50.
Be completely unreasonable. Wow. [00:48:00] So that's just, it's, it's like women have these, um, what is the word? Double standards.
Casey: Double standards. Yes. Yeah.
Leigha Lake: For how a man, so a man should be completely generous on spending money on her, um, regardless of whether like she has more money than he does or there, there's just an, um, an entitlement.
Yeah. And if that were my dad or my brother, my mama bear energy would be coming in. It's like, no, like she's, that means like, she's so selfish. She will never be able to. He will be, uh, at the same table as him. He will always be somewhat in a father role
Casey: to her. Wow. Shit, Leah, this is important work. I have waves of chills right now and tears at the backs of my eyes because of this, like, deep knowing that [00:49:00] we need to, like, not just be doing women's groups and men's groups over here.
As integrated humans, as integrated humans, we've gone down the path of integration so that we can support humans with integration. And what you just shared is like, Oh, I'm thinking about five men in my life right now. Immediately. I'm thinking about five men where they're not in healthy relationships, and this is the pattern and the, the woman feels an entitlement over his money.
And also he is going for it because that's where he gets his worth from not from his own integrity and his own fulfillment in his life. But he ends up being disappointed or like, there's no good integrated women out there. And this dynamic is at play. And something happened in my perception. When you spoke of if he was my brother or my dad, like that, there's something in that perspective where suddenly I went to like, [00:50:00] you know, even.
I don't know for myself, if, if he was my brother, my dad or my client who I love, you know, I would be like, fuck that. Get out. There's someone more integrated for you. Yeah. Run away.
Leigha Lake: Run away because that person does not have your best interests at heart. They
Casey: have their own. Wow. Yes. Okay. While you're dropping truth bombs over here, throw us one more, maybe one more red flag for men to look for in women.
So that run away from perhaps it's the better way to put it.
Leigha Lake: So if we break it down into the most simple way to put it, if a person is coming into your life, is their energy facing themselves or is it facing you? Because if it's facing themselves, they will never be the relationship partner that you need.
What
Casey: do you mean? So
Leigha Lake: if someone comes [00:51:00] to the table, let's say a man, we'll just go back to the man thing, cause I'm
Casey: that's easy. So if a
Leigha Lake: man goes on a date and he immediately wants a woman to pay 50, 50, his energy is more towards himself and what he doesn't want to lose than
Casey: investing in the relationship, which.
That's why I don't want
Leigha Lake: men like over investing too soon on that first date. If there were, if they are concerned about the money, like, and healthy men should be wise with their money. Right, like it's not to if they're going out on lots of dates, they need to have
Casey: a plan. Yeah,
Leigha Lake: yeah. Okay, so it's, it's definitely not about being stingy.
But okay, so if a man, was another way that men, okay. If a man comes on super strong. So he meets a [00:52:00] woman and he's texting her all day long. And he's like, I'm going to come see you. And he plans the date to basically go throughout the entire weekend. Women, you know, that's a lot of energy up front, but that this has nothing to do with the woman in front of him.
It's about himself and what he's gaining from it.
Casey: Right. And I can imagine just to, you know, think of the flip side for men who are seeking healthy women. I think it's exactly the same. I think there's exactly the same energy. If the woman is wanting to go out five times a week and have the man pay because that's her perception of him treating her like a queen.
Then the energies facing herself versus the relationship, because she's not considering what might be best for the man, which in turn is best for her. Yes, is best for the relationship. Let me say, yes, yes, makes perfect [00:53:00] sense. Yes. So
Leigha Lake: yeah, if, and if so, like, right, like if a man's like, will you meet me halfway?
Then for a woman, she can already, that's already him not, you know, him thinking about himself first versus. What would, what would feel better to a woman, but not in a codependent way, but just, um, like let go to the women on the first date. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Plan something. Yeah. Um, I mean, I feel like there's so many examples, of the energy facing themselves, um, versus having their own interests in mind first versus their partners and also so.
I do want to put this in there. When we put ourselves first as women that are healthy, right? We put our, like, we make sure we got to [00:54:00] make sure we get enough sleep and our hormones are balanced and we're getting enough exercise and being outside. That's putting ourselves first, but for the benefit of
Casey: all.
Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean, I know for I, yeah. Well, I would say it's the same for a man. Yeah. You know, like, I want my man to get enough sleep and to take care of his body. I want him to take care of himself more than I want him to, like outwardly over the top take care of me. If he's sacrificing himself to take care of me, he's not helping me as a big energy integrated woman.
Like, just take care of yourself and show up with presence and with energy. Meet me there.
Leigha Lake: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So I just wanted to put that out there. 'cause I know in the past when I've brought this to the table, I've had women think, well, how is that healthy if someone's putting themselves first?
But it, it, they're two completely different
Casey: concepts. . Mm-Hmm.
Leigha Lake: from [00:55:00] being whole and healthy. And the other one is from either unaware. We're being ungrounded. So it's that spectrum that I was talking about earlier where, um, so if we're talking about the surfer and seducer, and we're on the spectrum moving outward towards codependency and narcissism, then people have their interests, their best interests in mind, the closer we integrate, the more whole we become, the more we are embodied.
And also, so our actions are benefiting ourselves and everybody.
Casey: Yeah, so people who are listening are not seeing your body language as you communicate this message, and I'm just feeling called to put words to your body language to really hammer home what you just said, because I just made a couple connections through watching your body that maybe you did have words to but it feels important so, [00:56:00] so if, if you imagine that on the left side.
Is the, which archetype surfer surfer archetype. And on the right side is the seducer archetype. And in the middle is the integration, the healthy whole, the sailor. You said something about codependence and narcissism that you just like, you just dropped in there. And I want to pull that out. Cause that feels like a brain breaker.
Like it feels really important. So the surfer. On the left side is the person who has wounded feminine energy, therefore can tend toward codependence.
Leigha Lake: And if we go a little bit further to the left, it can be the covert
Casey: narcissist, right? Oh, that's who I dated. Ah, gosh. [00:57:00] Okay. I have experience with that one.
Okay. I think that's where I was a bit confused earlier. Cause you're right. It's like the vulnerable narcissist. Yeah. Not overt, not over the top charismatic, but like I am, I'm giving everything here, but actually it's self serving. Yep. Yep. Right. Okay. Beautiful. No. On either end of the spectrum, the far ends of the spectrum.
Yep.
Leigha Lake: So the right hand is the seducer and the grandiose narcissist. And the wounded masculine
Casey: wounded masculine. Okay, so I love this visual, because if we think about as these two archetype archetypes come closer to center, the woundedness becomes more healthy and integration occurs. So that healthy side of maybe the codependent, covert, [00:58:00] covert narcissist is they're, they're like giving and caring toward the other person.
So if we bring that archetype closer towards the center, a healthy masculine man, um, cares about the relationship and invests in the other person and like gives a damn to create a safe space and make her life better. Right. Without sacrificing himself, which is the healthy side of the unhealthy masculine, right?
So if we have on the far right, the grandiose narcissist, who's very self serving and we brought him into balance. And I think this is maybe answering some of the question to what I'm going to ask you about how the surfer and the seducer become the sailor. Right. Yeah. For the seducer to become more of the sailor archetype, he doesn't lose his sense of self worth.
He still has a grounded sense of [00:59:00] self worth. He still takes care of himself. He still sleeps and eats and exercises and has standards and doesn't like, um, deny his own intuition. And when he comes into the center, uh, the sailor is someone who doesn't self sacrifice for the sake of the other and has the other in mind.
Right? Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Thank you. You know that I process things through soundboarding. So I think I just sound boarded your wisdom and put words to it in a way for myself to understand. And hopefully it helps others in their understanding as well. So I guess if we're coming back to thinking about helping men become sailors, we've talked about what sailors can do, um, to attract a healthy, integrated woman.
What else would you like to say about the [01:00:00] surfer archetype? Uh, what can he do? What wisdom would you offer him to help him become a sailor and attract a really healthy, beautiful relationship?
Leigha Lake: Okay, so it, it, it does sound simple. All the surfer needs to do is be consistent. Most of
Casey: the time. Oh my gosh.
That sounds simple. Okay, say more. Okay, surfer. If you're listening to this, I hope you feel a sigh of relief. You're almost there. Keep going. We are ready for you. We're waiting for you. So when we are waiting for the
Leigha Lake: surfer, they want it because he has so much of what she's looking for, depending on where he is on this spectrum of integration.
Right. So the surfer, he. I really think all he [01:01:00] needs is the confidence of how to move things forward. But he needs to believe that a relationship, so surfers often can't get past themselves, they can't get past like their own. And that's an important reason for why it's worth it to them
Casey: to have a relationship.
What do you mean when you say that? For example, the common, um,
Leigha Lake: red flag of a surfer is he tells a woman how amazing she is. She's perfect. He wants to be the man that she needs, but his actions do not follow
Casey: through. Got it. There's incongruence in his words and actions. Yes. Yep.
Leigha Lake: And he will continue to tell a woman how amazing she is and that she's perfect, but somehow he, he, he can't move the relationship forward.
And so we need to figure out like, why, what's stopping him from moving things forward if
Casey: a woman is that [01:02:00] perfect. Whoa. Okay. So it's interesting. There's a level of discernment here. Is he not moving things forward because she actually is showing red flags that his intuition is picking up on. Right, which was actually a healthy experience of a sailor.
So does he just think he's a surfer, but actually he's a sailor? Yeah, so I don't
Leigha Lake: know, in very many men, because I haven't been having this conversation yet for men to identify with one of these archetypes, because I would I'm just going to go ahead and assume that a seducer is going to identify as a sailor.
Casey: But I mean, so I
Leigha Lake: don't teach it, teach men in this way. Right.
Casey: Women. It's very, very easy. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. So, uh, surfer. He needs to figure out why he's not moving forward if she's so perfect.
Leigha Lake: [01:03:00] Yeah. And if she's not, then why is he telling
Casey: her that? Exactly. And yeah. Yep.
Leigha Lake: And yeah. Are there red flags that his body is saying don't move forward?
Because that's legit. Right.
Casey: Or is he sort of scared and insecure and not integrated and healthy and whole enough to trust himself and his confidence that it's safe to move forward? And is there maybe some work for him to do around his, um, trauma or his lack of integration? Maybe there's some more self work to do there.
Leigha Lake: Yes. Yeah. So it's what, whatever's like, he's saying he wants one thing, but he's not able to get past himself. So we got to figure out
Casey: what that is. Okay. Beautiful. I feel like that's great wisdom. What was the one liner that you said he just needs to learn how to be consistent and move things forward?
Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's got so many great qualities. He's vocal and, you know, cares to [01:04:00] share how great a woman is. He just needs to be more consistent and move things forward.
Leigha Lake: Yeah. And it's the action. Women are looking for the action.
Casey: Yeah. Otherwise our intuition is picking up on something. If we're integrated in our own life raft, we're going to feel something to be off because there's incongruence.
Anytime, if I'm in a room talking to someone and they're saying all the right things, but there's an energy that's off about it, my whole system is like, nope. So like, as an integrated woman, I want that congruence. That's like the sexiest thing. Like, Oh, his actions line up with his words. It helps me to trust my intuition says, yes, go forward.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Okay. So the seducer type. I love what you said earlier. I don't know, you said something like, he's gonna think he's a sailor. Is there hope for the seducer? What [01:05:00] could the seducer do? I don't
Leigha Lake: know. Um, I don't know if there is, but I would love to find out. So for example, in, in a way to do that is, you know, if.
A seducer has hired a dating coach or relationship coach and the coach is like, Hey, here's the pace to go at. You know, if he's willing to listen, there's hope, right?
Casey: If he's not listening,
Leigha Lake: there's like, then, you know, it's good thing. Women are learning the red flags and it's a good, everyone needs to learn the red
Casey: flags.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just having this thought about how like common it is to. Use the term narcissist like we can use it in maybe ways where it's not totally warranted. Um, so I'm thinking about like an overt narcissist that could be like, you know, clinically diagnosed like that. That's it's hard. It's hard for transformation to happen in that [01:06:00] archetype.
Um, and then maybe there's the type of person who, um, maybe. Embodies characteristics of narcissism, though, perhaps I'm, I'm being compassionate here. Perhaps it's a response to trauma. Perhaps it's a, it's a symptom of some deeper cause and they're like, awaken to look at the deeper cause. Somehow, I don't know.
I'm just like, I'm just like, I really want there to, I really want all people to be in healthy relationships. And I just like, really want there to be, um, hope for the seducer type. Yes,
Leigha Lake: yes, I hear you. And that's why I do say it's a spectrum because I'm not, right. I'm not classifying anyone, but I'm like, these are the characteristics to look out for.
Casey: Yeah, yeah. These are the red flags. Yeah. [01:07:00] So let's say for, for someone where there's hope of transformation or change for that side of the spectrum to come back into an integrated space, what would be the thing that he most needs to focus on? Um,
Leigha Lake: self awareness and thinking about how his actions affect
Casey: others.
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, like consideration of the other and of the relationship. Yeah, I, when you describe this as a spectrum, I'm also thinking of this pattern I've seen where I've witnessed, um, I've said before. Integrated men traumatized by no, uh, traumatized women traumatizing men. I've seen before this pattern of beautiful, integrated, healthy men getting really [01:08:00] hurt by a woman who's been traumatized by men and then losing some of their integrated healthy nature, becoming more productive, moving from that center to one side of the spectrum, and then swinging to the other side of the spectrum.
We're not talking about the extremes of that spectrum. We're talking like closer into center. Um, it's broken my heart in dating, where I went through this period where I was attracting, uh, Men, beautiful men who were just recently out of a relationship or out of a divorce. And my sort of energetic take on it was that they're like beautiful men.
And there was some sort of like trauma in the relationship that made them feel. And maybe this is just a self awareness, like they didn't realize that they weren't ready to date again yet. Um, but maybe in that there's some questioning of their integrated wholeness. You know, and I feel like in those moments, [01:09:00] like I didn't date them, we maybe went on one or two dates, but like, I felt like my purpose on the planet in those moments was like, you're awesome.
And like, take the time that you need for yourself to heal your heart. But like, what I see is like this beautiful human who just got his heart broken. Yes,
Leigha Lake: yes. Yeah. Wow.
Casey: On
Leigha Lake: both sides, yes, of someone taking on the, their partners. stuff and then internalizing it and thinking something's wrong with them.
Casey: Yeah, I'm realizing through this conversation that yes, there are differences between men and women and the more that we speak Sometimes the same rules apply to just like humans, I'm feeling this beautiful compassion [01:10:00] for women and men, and sensing this deep desire under the surface, you know, obviously I know from personal experience as a woman this like deep desire for equal partnership, and I'm also just sensing some of the men that I serve who have similarly equal desire, and, and also who maybe are embodying some of the Sailor seducer qualities and in their sort of transformational path.
Um, it just feels like important work in the world to be offering all genders wisdom that could support us in coming into highly conscious partnerships. I believe that highly conscious partnerships will, will create an exponential impact on the world than those integrated beings on their own.
Leigha Lake: Oh my gosh, Casey.
Yes. 1000%. Like I
Casey: feel this.
Leigha Lake: Yeah. And I, I really want to [01:11:00] touch on what you said, but yes, like men and women are different, but we're not that different and a polarity and masculine, feminine energy creates too much of a pendulum that, Oh, like men are so confusing or women are so confusing. And, and it really comes back to like, how would I do this?
And is it that much different than your partner's doing it? Mm
Casey: hmm. Yeah. Wow. This is the gift of integration. Yeah. What final words do you have before we wrap up for today? What wants to come through you as some final notes for our conversation? Mm
Leigha Lake: hmm. Well, I think this could be the most important work
for people to To know and to, you know, for the generations to come, that [01:12:00] healthy relationships matter, like they impact
Casey: every area of our lives. Yeah. Yeah, I think about like, uh, my own sort of like healing path, right? It's like that started because of some sort of, um, constriction or dynamic that began like as a child, as it relates to my family, right?
Like, like that's where all of our stuff begins is in relationship with other humans. So, uh, it feels true that that. Could be the most important work that we do and if we want to bring into the world healthy humans You know like have babies and raise them and model healthy relationships for them Like what an impact that could have yes.
Yes,
Leigha Lake: so I'm excited about this idea of supporting men as well Very
Casey: excited. Yeah, I think we [01:13:00] were very productive today in our conversation. And for the listener here, this is what it looks like for Leah and I, we have these types of conversations all the time. This is what it looks like in our general life to be like, boxering back and forth, voice noting back and forth, figuring out like, how does this work?
And I feel like you just got a behind the curtain peek at, like, the process of discovering Truth and it shifts and changes as we grow. And as we learn more, because that's the point, like we're here to grow and learn and be together. And, um, I think it is important. So I hope, I hope it was enjoyable to listen to, you know, us figuring out what, what's the wisdom for men.
Casey. I
Leigha Lake: love this so much. Thank you
Casey: for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Well, that was fun. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. It's time for you to integrate. What have you learned? What are you taking away that you can implement into your life? Has your [01:14:00] awareness of healthy relationships changed?
Are you planning to act differently on dates? Are you integrating new wisdom around Coming into a way of being that is more integrated. I'd love to hear from you. Feel welcome to email info at worthy and well. com. And of course, Leah's contact information is in the show notes. Can't wait to connect with you next week.
Hope you
Leigha Lake: have an amazing day.
