Casey Berglund: [00:00:00] Hey there, my friend. This is Kasey Bergland, your host for the Purpose Map podcast and founder of Worthy and Well. Welcome back. Today, I have a guest, Matt Cooksey is an incredible therapist and coach and guide and honestly, awesome guy. We had the best conversation. He is here on the planet to make your inner self discovery journey less daunting.
We talked a lot about how truth can be found underneath layers of pain. And yet sometimes it's hard to go into and be with that pain that shows up on any transformational journey, but why it is so totally Cooksy that
Was [00:01:00] once a really denied part of him who through the process that he teaches about learned that that that part actually holds a creative genius and has many gifts that can support his life and the aligned success that he's here on the planet to create and the fulfillment that he's here to invite into his life.
And so in this conversation, we really. Open up to what a deep transformational self discovery journey looks like, including the hard parts of that. And he helps to make it easier. He's created an incredible map that Supports you with finding safety as you enter into your hero's journey. I felt like from the moment that we dropped into this conversation, there [00:02:00] was a connection and from that place of presence and authenticity and depth and realness and truth, magic happened.
I love it. These are conversations that I live for. So without further ado, welcome to my conversation with Matt. All right, Matt, we've been talking for a whole of 10 minutes, and already I feel a tenderness in my heart in your presence. And it's a type of tenderness that is one of like awe and wonder and gratitude for the way in which connection can happen so instantly.
And it's a type of tenderness that comes with truth. And I'm just so grateful that you're here. And looking forward to the, the like, some truth talk.
Matthew Cooksey: I love. [00:03:00] That you went straight for the truth, because for me, that's where it all begins, and I'm not sure when we begin this journey towards looking for a higher purpose or a higher self, I'm not sure that we Are often prepared to dive into the truth.
The truth can be a confronting a confronting thing when we've been trained to live in so much falsehood in our lives and yet. I think the fact that you and me are sitting here today, and we have done this work for years, of diving into the truth, the thing that I'm present to, as I'm looking at your face smiling at me, is that it is the gateway to To the [00:04:00] realization of our shared being by being grounded in this truth.
We were able to get on this call and just really connect in such a profound way. And I think that is something that's so powerful for people to start to explore their relationship with, with truth. So thank you for taking this.
Casey Berglund: Yeah. Yeah. We're going there. Um, for the listener. Matt. He sent me a cold pitch via email and I typically automatically respond with a no to any cold pitch email and I read his email and my whole body wisdom said, yes, this will be a beautiful conversation.
And that was three months ago or more because our lives have unfolded and now. The timing is right and we're here and we're dropping into truth together. And I just [00:05:00] love that, you know, you spoke about, you know, getting on the call and we're feeling into that energy, but it was long before too, just our first interaction felt like it was grounded in truth.
And you're right that, that there can be this fear of going straight to the truth. And yet there's a, um, quantum unfolding that happens when two people have the courage to go straight there.
Matthew Cooksey: Yeah. So when, when you have, um, when you have avoided looking in, in particular parts of your own being, because you've got like, and you know, you've got a load of stuff stashed down there.
And in many ways, I think we feel and know intuitively that the truth is kind of underneath all that stuff. It's kind of like down, truth, like our connection to truth is like down there, underneath all that [00:06:00] stuff that we have been pushing down. And so it becomes, uh, There's that great line in the book, The Untethered Soul, uh, where Michael Singer says that there's a, there's a layer of pain in our heart that is so intense and so challenging our whole personality revolves around avoiding ever going there.
And I think that is the great reward of You know, when I think about the people who listen to your show, I get the sense that these are all such courageous people who are journeying into the pain that they spent most of their life avoiding. And so just for them to know and to really feel that the fruits of that can emerge out of it and find connection to the divine [00:07:00] wholeness.
Um, a quantum field, as you put it, um, so it's exciting, it's exciting, even if it's daunting.
Casey Berglund: Yeah, and not just from a spiritual perspective, a quantum field and divine wholeness, but like more fun, deeper relationships, more meaningful life, like a good time, like it's fun, it's fun being on. Kind of the other side of that pain and or being in the journey of being able to meet the pain, whatever pain comes up and know that there are like golden gifts through that journey that are worth it.
Matthew Cooksey: Oh my God. I mean, right. I love that you took us to a more pragmatic, uh, the stuff of gritty human life because I think one of the things I'm, one of the things I'm so passionate about is, um, is bringing spirituality down from the, the mountaintop. And, you know, right now. In [00:08:00] my marriage, this capacity that we're talking about to be able to move and relate from truth when that truth is bringing up lots of difficult emotions and all of that stuff, like that in itself.
And I've got three small kids as well. And that, that capacity is dramatically transforming my marriage right now. And I know for a fact. If I wasn't able to connect with the truth that lives inside me and all of us, my marriage would be over. It would be toast. Because I would be the I would be living out of such fear and insecurity and confusion and probably projecting so much of that [00:09:00] onto my partner.
Um, it would just be a mess. And so I'm so with you when you say like, it's so good. It's so amazing. Like I just had the most amazing conversation with my husband last night and we're sitting there at the table and we're having this really, really profound intemper. Conversation. Um, and I sat there and I thought, Oh my God, if I had not done this work, if we'd both not done this work, we would not be sitting here connecting like this.
We just would not.
Casey Berglund: Yeah. Had you done a lot of the work before you met him? Or has it primarily evolved in the process of being together? I'm like so curious about your relationship journey in that way. And I'm really trusting that it's like connected, you know, that wherever we go is connected to whatever the point of this is, which is, you
Matthew Cooksey: know.
Yeah, 100%. 100%. For [00:10:00] me, it is all connected. I think. Uh, whether, whatever you're grappling with when it comes to purpose or, or, uh, those topics, it's the same, for me, it's the same fundamental dynamic that is impacting your capacity for intimacy and relationship. It's, it's fundamentally, are you living from a divided.
in a state where different parts of you are pulling in different directions. And for me that, that underlying, uh, you know, uh, dynamic is the thing that impacts our capacity to live purposeful lives and impacts our capacity to have a great relationship. So to answer your question, like, no, I was really I was just training to become a therapist when I met my husband.
I like to say, uh, that we, we met over gonorrhea samples because we were both [00:11:00] working in a sexual health center on our placements. He's a, he's a GP, uh, like a family physician. Um, and I was training to become a therapist and I was counseling, uh, young, young people. who are engaged in risky sex and that, that stuff.
And so, you know, it became a joke that we met over the gonorrhea samples, but it's not a joke, actually, it's kind of true. Um, but you know, I was, uh, it's actually having this conversation with a girlfriend just last week, um, about who was I, who, who got into this relationship and on what basis did I get into this relationship, which is, you know, 11 years on, we've been together.
More than a decade, we've got three kids under four, you know, we're a gay couple, we've been through having kids through surrogacy, uh, in the States, and, and I live, we live in Australia, and so, you know, we've done a whole heap, but, um, [00:12:00] when I look back on who I was when I got into this marriage, it makes so much sense that as this work has unfolded within myself, Uh, I've had to throw my marriage into the fire of transformation without any guarantee about whether there would be a marriage left.
And honestly, in the last two to three years, it has been fierce. It has been fierce. And we have, um, yeah, we have come close. To separating, uh, at times, and as I see it, that has been a very necessary part of our healing. You know, I think so many people in relationships really are so desperate to make it work.
Yeah. That they're close to the possibility that it, that it [00:13:00] won't work. And ironically, by being close to the possibility that it won't... work, it doesn't work because they're forcing it. Everything is forced. And so I think in life. In relationships and in purpose, this radical openness to what we are experiencing is, is, is the profound gift.
It's the profound gift where all the good stuff comes from, you know, every moment. Fresh and, you know, we're sort of two to three years into this, this fierce transformation of our relationship and, you know, there are still times where I'm like, Oh my God, like, what's going to happen here? You know, like, where is this going?
But it really seems clear to me now that the, that this, this underlying wisdom, this deep, uh, love that seems to be at the heart of life has, has got its [00:14:00] hands around my marriage and is working its beautiful magic. Um, it's amazing.
Casey Berglund: I love it. And this is Such an incredible example for a lot of different reasons.
Like I think what you just shared about the transformation that your marriage has gone through and who you were at the start and who you've become throughout and how you continue to evolve and how you've maybe been through I don't want to say forced because it sounds like you're an empowered man who has chosen.
And it sounds like your husband is an empowered man who has chosen to like loosen your grip on controlling the relationship in favor of some bigger, maybe more divine, truthful unfolding to occur. Right. It's, it's like. It's like, that is such a beautiful example connected to the topic of like what you started with, which is like truth is underneath layers of pain [00:15:00] and Thanks And or fear, etc.
Right. And also, I'm noticing, I often will attune to kind of like patterns that I see in, in the collective or like, ooh, all of my friends are going through this at the same time or clients or whatever and I'm seeing from this really high up perspective, a reorganization of relationships, almost as if, uh, Okay.
God, the divine, the universe is sort of like enough with mediocre relationships. We need certain souls to be together for whatever purpose or mission or whatever needs to be carried out in the world. And so I'm noticing that right now in the world and in my close circles, like some people are getting out of marriages, entering into new relationships.
Some people are risking losing it all and then finding deeper connection at the bottom of it. Um, I'm in my own experience, you know, like my dad just died. And shortly thereafter, I meet someone who I'm like falling in love with. [00:16:00] And there's this opening in my heart, and because I've done so much work of moving away the pain to get to the truth, and so has he, there's like this similar sort of, this is not a linear, Connection, you know, there's like a deepening that's happening fast because of the willingness to go there and maybe the evidence that it's safe to do that because we've done enough work of like leaning into the pain or the shadow or the unknown in order to receive those like golden gifts at the end, which for me have been.
More about self trust than anything and self love than anything and connecting to that uh, divine like love force. I love that you said it's like your relationship is held by this uh, chalice of
Matthew Cooksey: love. That's how, that's, on a good day that is how it feels. Yeah. Tell me about the bad days.
Casey Berglund: Well, I'm like.
Tell me about the shit, get real.
Matthew Cooksey: Let's get, get shitty about it. Well, I, I mean, you know, [00:17:00] and I'm so glad that, you know, you're having this experience. Um. Of, of your heart being opened in a way that is opening you, you in so many other ways in your life because, um, to go back to you said, Oh, I don't want to say you were forced into this because you sound like an empowered man.
I want to like, come back to that. Oh, I was forced, baby. I was. Forced in the sense that like I was forced to to throw this marriage this relationship and and I've done this I did the same with my Uh business my work about three years ago I I was so got to the point where it was so clear that the work I was doing as a leadership coach I was not in alignment with Um, with who I am that I threw, I threw my business into the fire as well.
And on both occasions, I just want to be really [00:18:00] clear that it was purely out of the pain of being out of integrity with both myself and the truth, the truth we could say. And, um, and I really, I love, um, that's a great term. I think, uh, the spiritual teacher Ram Dass coined, which is a fierce grace. And, um, it really, to me, feels like, you know, Grace is like this idea of unearned merit, like, in a way.
Our connection, as soon as I got on this call with you, feels like a grace, like it just feels like such a grace to be, to have been gifted being in your presence, being together, being connected, like it's such a grace. And then Ramda said, and what we don't recognize is that grace comes in another form, which is called fierce grace.
And fierce grace is, is when the pain that we've been [00:19:00] speaking about here is triggered by your husband or by your, uh, by your work that you're, or your creativity or your entrepreneurship or whatever it is, when the pain comes up, we don't recognize it, but it is a grace because that pain is If we can sink into it, a portal of transformation, um, for our lives.
It's the, it's the signal that says, um, you're, you're, you're living in la la land, sweetheart. You are confused. Stop, stop, you know? Um, so it was very much pain and suffering that brought me to the point of, um, of really risking. So much.
Casey Berglund: It's interesting when you talk about this pain, like the pain of being out of integrity with the truth is a certain type of pain.
[00:20:00] And then there's this pain of like, Ooh, dipping your toe in the unknown or like risking the relationship or whatever. Right. There's it. You talked about avoidance of pain at the beginning, which almost sounded like a different type of pain than this pain of being out of integrity with. Truth, and I'm curious what comes up for you when I share that?
Matthew Cooksey: Thanks for putting it like that. Um, yeah, to me, uh, they're very connected because to be out of integrity with the truth generates more of the very pain that. We want to avoid and therefore leaves us disconnected from the truth, which then causes us to act in ways that are out of integrity again, which generates more of this pain.
And so, you know, for example, to your point, if, um, uh, if you're feeling that [00:21:00] you're out of integrity in some aspect of your life. and you feel the pain of that misalignment. I think you talk a lot about living a, an aligned life and aligned success. So you've, if you're feeling that your success is not happening in an aligned way, it's forced, um, you can make yourself successful.
I think we've probably both done, done that, but it wasn't necessarily an integrity. So, you're doing that, you recognize that, and then it occurs to you that, uh, you know, some truth comes through. And the truth says, try this, or do this, or go there, or say this, whatever. And, and then, the very pain that had you out of integrity in the first place.
Is activated. Right. And at that moment, if you have not done the work of [00:22:00] leaning into that kind of, uh, discordance, that inner, that inner division that creates the pain, then most likely what you're going to do is act in a way again, that is not in integrity. So it just really, to me, it becomes a loop, a vicious cycle that you break by learning to be with all of this discomfort and realizing that it actually contains like your most awful dysfunction, what you see as your dysfunction, your worst, most dysfunctional self, I believe, is like a misunderstood genius and is holding the keys.
And when you're spending your life pushing that away, you are missing out. You are missing out and, and, uh, yeah, but it's hard. I [00:23:00] want to acknowledge that it can be really hard to face what we've habitually pushed away in ourselves.
Casey Berglund: Yeah, totally. I noticed when you were talking about like the pain in the body and like when you haven't learned how to like navigate that pain, even I'm starting to do it as I describe it, you, you brought your hands like in front of your chest and it was almost like you were motioning to your body like as if that pain shows up in your body in a certain way, which I just want to speak to because that feels important.
And, and also like, so I'm curious about you. That like the role of embodiment from your perspective or from your work or the role of like actually feeling sensation of pain or discomfort in the body in the process of finding and get and then I'd love for you to speak more of the, it can be like your greatest gift to tap into your dysfunction or the discomfort or the thing that you're trying to shove away.
So tell me more about the [00:24:00] role of the body. In this process of meeting yourself and also just I would love for you to speak more about how this your dysfunction could be your greatest gift. I had waves of chills when you said that. So it felt like an important one to double click on.
Matthew Cooksey: Yeah. Yeah. Nice. I.
Love to speak about this from the immediacy of this moment, because of course I'm sitting here with a human body and it's doing stuff right now, as we're speaking, that is a great way of sort of describing this. So for me, um, right before we came on this call, there is Uh, a part of myself that my name, my surname is Cooksey and I've named this, this part of myself, little, little cookie and, uh, [00:25:00] little cookie is the part of myself that is very creative.
That is, uh, um, very intuitive and is really the source of my authentic voice and my authentic connection to the truth. But like in so many people, that part of myself. got shamed very early on in my life. So when I feel this part of myself, the little cookie come up, as I did before we got on this call, I feel him in my body, in my, in my guts as this, like.
I'm, I'm holding my hand up as this like gut clench and then this energy that sort of reverberates up through my, through my body. And before I really understood and experientially realized that this part of myself [00:26:00] is a, a beautiful, creative genius in many ways. I just experienced that sensation in my body as unwanted, dysfunctional, fear.
You know, it's very popular to write off sensations like that and say, well, that's just fear talking, you know, get over it or, uh, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway. Yes. Or just, just live beyond fear. Don't be a hostage to fear, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of this stuff. And for me, I get that, and there is definitely a time and place for that, and what I think that misses is that in the midst of all of that, there is a, a vital faculty of, of life.
[00:27:00] Waiting for you to discover it. You know, what if your authentic voice that you're like, searching for in the midst of self doubt, and, uh, all of that, is in the last place you would think to find it? That's what I'm talking about. And so Yes. Uh, that I think is the, the gift of, of your most intense pain is that there is, there are, there are uncharted parts of yourself waiting to be discovered in the midst of it.
Casey Berglund: Mm. I love this so much. And it's immediately making me think of a client session I had yesterday, um, with someone who I often will do walking coaching sessions with. And I've noticed that the regulation, the nervous system regulation of walking. Helps him to feel period period to feel and, um, you know, there's been a lot of transformation [00:28:00] in his process and, um, and in that transformation, messages have come through around, like creating space, like, you know, very successful business owner and, and busy and.
He's done so much of that. He's created the space. And then in the space. Now, there are these parts that are coming up that are like, Oh, wait a minute. Nope. Can't do that. Like, it's almost like filling the space immediately. And as we were walking, um Something came through me that just, you know, sometimes I feel like there's an intuitive voice that's not necessarily mine that I'm just like a channel for in that moment that was really feeling the importance of guiding embodiment of the different like parts.
He was experiencing and it was like there was some anxiety that wanted to just like go, you know, fix this, move on, fill the space and then with the cues to like pause [00:29:00] and like really uncomfortable, like, no, like, don't talk to me until we get to that next lamp post and feel and it was almost like underneath that like tension in the chest was this like tenderness at the back, like, Okay.
He described a tenderness at the back of his neck and his back that felt like sadness and, you know, and, and, you know, I queued him to kind of feel it a little bit longer and then ask some questions about like, what does that part want to need and I could almost like see. The kind of like ego come back on board and be like just to like move on and like be done with this already, you know?
Anyway, long story short, by the end there was this recognition that the move on be done with it. Has been the path the whole way, the whole time. And that actually it's the opposite. Actually, it's that tenderness in the back, that uncomfortable part that is, [00:30:00] uh, wanting to be avoid. It doesn't want to be avoided, but he wants to avoid it.
That is the secret superpower. And in that moment of awareness of like, Whoa, What if it is that part that holds the keys to my next level of success or to my next intimate relationship to everything? It's another example of exactly what you described, that there's this almost automatic reactive Part that wants to push through, put it somewhere, move on, be in the pattern, and yet it's the slowing down and connecting with the vulnerable, sometimes even gross, disgusting, shadowy, dark, jealous, bitchy, whatever, you know, whatever we judge.
It's like that part is just wanting to come home to the wholeness, and it's in the wholeness that there's true power. Oh [00:31:00] my
Matthew Cooksey: god, my whole body is like... I guess to everything that you've just shared, um, just experientially, um, that has been my experience that All of these parts of myself just want to go home.
They just want to go home. And for me, what that really means, to be really tangible about that, is, um, that I, what I see is that all of these parts of ourselves that are working so hard all the time and, and creating so much noise inside that makes it hard to drop down underneath and hear, hear yourself.
All that's happening because each of these parts of ourselves is carrying some kind of burden from the past. And And very often what's really going on [00:32:00] is, um, you know, even, even in the example you gave of this, this person who didn't want to be with what was coming up in this anxiety that when he, when he did led to a deeper appreciation of some sadness and so on.
All of this wisdom. That is a part of him that is trying to avoid, avoid that, and to actually go to that part, you know, we all have that part of ourselves that wants to avoid, and typically what happens is we make that part wrong, and the enemy, oh now I'm, now I'm practicing embodiment, and now I'm leaning into the pain, and now I'm doing this, and oh no, I've got this part of me is coming up, and it's making me scroll through, Hopefully YouTube or, uh, go, uh, avoid all the time and, and now that part becomes wrong.
Yes. And it's like, can you stop making any part [00:33:00] of you Yes. Wrong? And could you be open to the possibility that, you know, every single one of these parts of yourselves is carrying the keys? I know it's so hard to, to, to really grasp that. But, but that to me, um, is where I, that's where I, I lead people because time and time again, like I was working with a client just on, on Friday and she was working with her fear of fear.
She was like, I asked her what was her most feared emotion. And she was like, I'm terrified of fear and she was brave enough to actually in the session really drop into some fear that she was feeling and follow it and it landed in such a similar sweet sadness. tenderness that then led, [00:34:00] that then turned into just a kind of, um, calmness, a kind of peace.
And for her, what she said was, I have spent my entire life avoiding feeling that kind of fear, and you've just shown me that if I actually stay with it, it leads me to peace. And it was so shocking to her. She literally sat there and she was like, I just can't believe what I've discovered. I can't believe it.
So this is the, this is the gift that is awaiting people. Yeah.
Casey Berglund: I feel like there's an integration moment for our listener right now. You know, like a question that's like, what is the emotion or part of you that you are most avoiding or find most unbearable or most disgusting or most that you most judge?
And just note that for now, what is that, you [00:35:00] know, and I love what you shared about how like the minute you start this work and you go into the part you've been avoiding, then suddenly the other part becomes bad or wrong or whatever. And in the context of this client session, it was like, okay, so you're attuned to the tenderness now.
Now, what is the tension in the chest saying and needing and wanting? And also what, what's happening with that? Tingliness in the belly, like for me, the parts where it kind of comes in, in this like embodied way, these different parts have different sensations in the body, and I noticed how exactly what you described was starting to happen, like the part that was avoiding started to be judged, and it was like, no, no, it still gets to have space to be here on this team of your being, you know, um, so yeah, I totally get that.
You weren't, you weren't mentioning, go ahead.
Matthew Cooksey: I was just gonna add, we, you know, we, I think the thing that we miss about that part of ourself that does the avoidance, that does the numbing and so on, is that there are really, really good and important [00:36:00] reasons that we have that. Part of ourself, like, I, I see with my kids who are, you know, also little still, that, um, you know, we're still really learning how to raise our young as human beings, and we may have got most of their physical needs catered for, but very often, kids are chronically, emotionally, unsafe.
They're feeling emotionally unsafe. And so inevitably, inevitably, We develop this part of ourselves that can only do one thing at two years old, to spare us the pain, and that is to dissociate. from it. It's the only way out at two and three years old. And so if we, um, if we discover this dynamic within ourselves as adults and then just demonize it within ourselves, what we do is perpetuate it.
Because of course, when you're demonizing [00:37:00] any part of yourself, you create more pain, which then makes more, more numbing. And it's just a self fulfilling prophecy. So I, I really, um, I really encourage what you just described, you know, just this This openness to every, every aspect of your experience, um, and really trying not to make any part of you wrong because it's, uh, it's, it's got something important for you.
Casey Berglund: Yeah. I think that's part of the power of compassion and curiosity, self compassion, curiosity is being able to go into that space and actually not make parts wrong. You mentioned before we hit record that, um, You've recently started to like see clearly a almost like a universal or archetypal and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong with that language, sort of like a framework for supporting people in being ready to go into this work of [00:38:00] like, meeting themselves, especially maybe meeting the uncomfortable or rejected parts of the self, um, in order to create more wholeness.
And, and I'm curious if this feels like a good moment to speak a little bit more about that roadmap or your discovery around it, because of the fact that, like, it can be hard to start to enter into a space of, like, moving through the pain to get to the truth. Right.
Matthew Cooksey: Oh my God. Um, I mean, this is the core of what I feel I'm here for, is to make these journeys less daunting.
That's what I'm really here for, because, um, the, the, the power of going on this journey, to me, is without doubt. The, the, the real, uh, the real issue I think that stops people from diving in, or even those who do dive into this, this work of really examining and looking at themselves, but who [00:39:00] then, then often get kind of lost or stuck somewhere along the way, is Is that that makes the whole process so scary and frightening and heavy and, and I think so many people just find themselves sort of shutting down in the face of that.
And it's such a, it's such a tragedy. So, I mean, what occurred to me as I've done this work for, you know, about a decade now is. That if you go on any great adventure, any great journey, you would not go without a map. Um, you wouldn't. You, you know, um, you would become disorientated, lost, like, and so,
Casey Berglund: um You would be like, fuck this journey!
Yeah, that's too scary. You know, like, like we need a little bit of safety to be able to like go on an epic journey.
Matthew Cooksey: Absolutely. Absolutely. And when, you know, we've been talking in this conversation [00:40:00] about the pain and all of this, this, this stuff. It's a very kind of, uh, nebulous. idea before you sort of embark on it, or even when you're in the midst of it.
And the psyche is such a shape shifting, um, vast ecology to explore that I think I've come to the conclusion that a map is absolutely essential. And so, um, I have, as you said, I've created. Based on all of the work that I've done with clients over the years, a map and a way of mapping, taking that kind of general map and applying it and tailoring it to a specific individual.
And I like to think of it like a Google map for your psyche. And just imagine if you, let's say, are facing a moment where you know you [00:41:00] need to surrender. You need to surrender your marriage, or you need to surrender in your business, or in your work, or even just in a conversation. It doesn't even have to be as grand as, as, as, as that.
But you're facing a moment of surrender. And the part of you that is connected to the greater whole knows that, and is trying to have you let go, and then immediately, all this resistance comes up, all of this, all of, you know, the part that likes to control everything comes up. The part that tries to numb out all of your fear and anxiety comes up, you know, so much can happen so quickly inside of ourselves.
That's what makes it so easy to become disorientated. And so with this map that I've developed and on my, on my website, I've actually [00:42:00] created a 10 minute tour of this map that you can, you can download for free and actually see it. And I actually, it's a dynamic map. So I move parts of the map around. So that you can actually see and finally like get a visual on what is happening to you in those moments when you're trying to surrender or you're trying to not have a conversation with your mom from a triggered, uh, place or, uh, you know, you're trying to, uh, access your creativity or your intuition, like to be able to actually get a visual on what, how is this pain and this, yeah.
resistance and stuff. How is it all moving inside me? What does it look like? Show it to me. You know, for me, that is the great power of what has come through me and into the world. And it, and it's, um, [00:43:00] it feels like such a gift because you know, before you dive in, you know, you can actually start to get clear about the territory that you're diving into before you dive in, you know, and that makes it feel for people a lot less frightening.
And then they can choose. Okay. Now I've seen what's there. I actually don't think I am equipped to dive in. Yeah. Yes. That's the truth. Yes. Oh yeah. You know, I, I need to dive into this part of myself, but with the map, you can, you can really look at it in a more objective way.
Casey Berglund: Hmm. That's so brilliant. Yeah. I can imagine having a map for this type of hero's journey.
Would bring, you know, even knowing there will be challenges in the journey would bring a sense of taking the edge off safety softness that makes it just a little [00:44:00] bit easier and feel like you said, people can choose so more empowered to decide if they're in or if they're not, or if they're not yet. And yeah,
Matthew Cooksey: I mean, it's the, the, the, the ego is such a, um, has such subtlety to it.
It has so many dimensions to it. And um, you know, when, when you can start really mapping this shape shifter, this, this ego that we, uh, very quickly demonize. What I have found is that you actually start to see that the ego is not your enemy, that it is not the enemy of your enlightenment or your success or whatever, that actually your ego is your divine clothing.
It is the, it actually is formed of. All of these [00:45:00] parts that bring the faculties that the divine needs to be able to move in human form. The issue is that that ego has become divided. conflicted and confused within itself. And, and this is what this work to me is about, is having the courage to dive into that confusion as this greater whole self that we really all are underneath and actually meticulously kind of work through, work through that confusion to To align our humanity with the deeper truth of our being, and then our work life, our leadership, our entrepreneurship, our marriages, our relationships, become a reflection of that integration, or not, you know, otherwise.
You know, if we're disintegrated at that level, then our lives disintegrate. [00:46:00] Good
Casey Berglund: one. Yeah. It's so funny as you, as you were talking, there's this little voice that's kind of coming in that I feel like you've maybe answered this question, but I also have a sense that it's here because there's an even deeper answer.
And you know what that question is, Matt, why do you give a shit? Why do you give a shit? Actually, what's the, what's the depth of your give a shit in this work?
Matthew Cooksey: Fuck, I love that question. Um, I mean, what it really comes down to, I think, is having felt so utterly lost, so utterly lost, and so utterly ashamed.
I kind of joke that I, I feel like I came out of the womb ashamed of myself. You know, I mean, [00:47:00] it's
Casey Berglund: possible. I feel like I did too. I feel like I just like inherited a shit ton of shame. So like, I think that's like legit.
Matthew Cooksey: Yeah, I think that's a legit thing. Okay, good. I'm glad we got together. I want to
Casey Berglund: validate you because I feel the same.
Matthew Cooksey: Right. And, and that shame that I felt from such an early age caused so much stuff, caused me to suffer so much and create so much dysfunction in my life. Being so disintegrated inside myself was so abjectly painful. I hid my sexuality for, you know, the first 25 years of. of my life. I was acting as a people pleaser continually.
Um, I was, um, engaging in behaviors that were hurtful to my body. Um, you know, you name it. My existence, which by the way, had all of the boxes ticked that people say you have to get ticked [00:48:00] as well, you know, right, of course, money and all and the car and the vacations and, you know, all of that stuff was there but underneath.
The depth of my own pain was so agonizing that on my 30th birthday, I, uh, my mum walked into to my house and she just looked at me and I burst into tears and I, and she said, what's wrong? And I said, I have no idea. I had no idea. I felt so lost and I had, I was so lost that I had no idea why or how I was so lost.
I just had no clue. And I went to the gym that day because I was so used, a bit like your client, of picking myself up and, you know, pounding out on the treadmill. And it's so funny in retrospect that a treadmill is a road to nowhere because I was like running on this treadmill and um, I actually fell off.
The road to nowhere. I literally fell off the treadmill in the middle of the gym on my 30th birthday and [00:49:00] sprained my leg. And I went down into, they had this jacuzzi, this lovely big jacuzzi. And I was probably the most depressed and anxious and ashamed I had ever felt in my life in that moment. And um, and I think this gets to the heart of my, of my give a shit.
Because as I got into that jacuzzi, I surrendered. Not by choice or by design, but out of sheer pain. Fierce grace. Everything, all these parts of me that would have been working so hard, but in a disintegrated way to make me happy, just gave up. They just gave up. Everything went quiet inside myself. And I heard a voice that I now realize was actually life, God, the universe.
My true self, however you want to say that. And it just said something so simple [00:50:00] but so clear to me. It said, you don't have to do any of this. And, and in that moment, it was like I had heard... It was immediately obvious to me that this was not my voice. Where it was used to, to living from. And it was really that moment that sparked this entire journey.
And we started this conversation talking about the truth that lives underneath all of this pain. And in that moment, there was just a moment of a clearing of that pain by pure grace that allowed me for the first time in my life to experience my true. And it was transformational, transformational of my entire existence and that is why I give a shit because, because, because we all deserve to live from, from what we really [00:51:00] are.
And to realize that what we are experiencing here is an amazing gift and amazing. And it's even an amazing gift when it seems like it looks. Like a hell, even then it's an amazing gift and this work that we love and that we do is what allows people to find heaven when they're in hell.
Casey Berglund: There's a little moment for a sacred pause there. I feel like there's a, a real mic drop, undeniable truth to your answer to that question.
Matthew Cooksey: Yeah, it's, it's so beautiful just experientially, as a, as a guy who spent a lot of time talking to people, trying to calculate [00:52:00] answers to questions like that in conversations, as a people pleaser, like, what does she want me to say? What would be the right thing to say in this moment? To have none of that going on, to be silent when you ask me, why do you give a shit?
And then to just have this outpouring that just, just. Came. It feels so, um, it feels like such a gift to just from life to itself through me. What a privilege.
Casey Berglund: Yeah. And I'm, I'm witnessing in you, I feel like we've had so many full circle moments, actually, since we started this conversation, I'm witnessing in you the same tenderness that I felt in my body when we began where that truth just came from.
It's like, I'm sensing that, that life force, that essence of truth, that almost as if it is its own energy moving through us. I kicked off from a [00:53:00] space of that energy that felt like that tenderness. And I'm witnessing in you what I call truth tears. And I'm witnessing in me truth tingles. This, like, and what I want to say is like, this is fucking life.
This is it. There's nothing better than this to me, like to be in the presence of truth and authenticity and connection from that place. It's just like, so, so beautiful. So thank you for, um, well, the work that you've done that allowed you to not overcalculate your answer to that question and to just open up to what is real, because I think that really like grounds in the point.
You know, like when people, you said this about part of your story, when people have it all, but they can't quite figure out [00:54:00] why they have nothing. This is why they don't have this. This is what we're seeking. This is the fulfillment. You know, there are no, there are no cars and dollar bills and like accolades and even we had no needed outcome to this conversation.
There was no like, Hey, I'm selling this thing. And so like, I really want to talk about it. It was, and of course. We both run businesses, so we both have shit to sell that's really fucking good. So like, you know, eat it up. We'll make sure all the links are in the show notes, right? But that wasn't the point.
The point from the very beginning, and I could tell from that email you wrote me that you, A, actually listened to that podcast you referenced, and B, actually gave a shit about like a connection. And it felt like there was something pulling you to that [00:55:00] that was beyond you. And that is felt. And that is like, for me, that's like the awe and the wonder and the beauty and the point of life.
So this is why we go into the pain to get to the truth. Why it's worth it.
Matthew Cooksey: This is, this is it. Absolutely. Um, it's alive. It's really, it's really living, you know, it's the experience of really, really living and just the, uh, freshness, you know, of, um, every moment and how this conversation has been an expression of that, um, so much down to how you showed up at the start in this, in this tenderness.
I'm just completely open and, um, I hope that [00:56:00] everyone listening can sense and feel that within themselves. Um,
Casey Berglund: yeah. That maybe that, that part in them is, is sparked.
Matthew Cooksey: Yeah.
Casey Berglund: Totally. Um, this feels like a, a good place to start to close things up. And uh, given that. You do have incredible offerings and you are a man who gives a shit.
I'd love to hear more about how anyone listening can stay in touch with you or engage with your work. What's the best way to stay connected?
Matthew Cooksey: So my website is unmystical. com, unmystical. com because I want to take the mystery out of this in a journey through this, through this map and equipping people to, to go on the journey.
So you can come there [00:57:00] and you can actually see what I mean by a map. Like I said earlier, you can, um, take a tour of it and I'll show you in real time, uh, how it could change. How you orient yourself and navigate this, this journey. Um, and you know, for, uh, for anyone who then feels like, God, I want a map.
Then that's one of the things that I offer for people is to draw their map. Uh, so that's really usually a great way into this, into this work. So come, come to the website and have a look and, and, uh, you know, it's just a privilege to share. What I share with people, uh, I know it can make such a profound difference to just sort of know where you are in yourself.
Um, to be able to orient yourself. So thank you for having me here, Casey. It's been, um, just so wonderful. And, uh, [00:58:00] I hope that people who've been listening along here realize that what we're pointing to is, is really, uh, the essence of what we all are and what's on the table for all of us in our human lives.
You know, it's to live from this space all the time. Like it sounds, um, like that's unrealistic or idealistic or a pipe dream
Casey Berglund: and I call bullshit. This is a space I live from all the time. It is my life and it is your life and I can tell. And it is good.
Matthew Cooksey: It's good. We live good,
Casey Berglund: my friend.
Matthew Cooksey: Totally.
Casey Berglund: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for initiating and reaching out and, um, you know, putting in that effort to, to like form this connection and showing up to have this conversation. Um, I have [00:59:00] loved it, this conversation, and I, I trust there'll be more connection down the line.
Matthew Cooksey: Thanks, Casey. So much love to you.
Casey Berglund: Love to you as well. Wow. Wrapping up that conversation, I'm feeling the awe and wonder and gratitude of life itself and these connections that mean so much. It's time for you to integrate. What is your number one takeaway from this conversation with Matt? What are you judging or pushing away or avoiding or not looking at within yourself and how Might you begin the process to be with that as a way to come home to yourself, as a way to become more whole, as a way to actually [01:00:00] step into your next level of aligned success?
I know that those are big questions. So, of course, take a peek at Matt, Matt's That was a bit of a tongue twister, Matt's map, Matt's roadmap for this inner journey. Of course, he's here to make it less daunting. So let him help. Let me help. We love to hear from you. So if you have any questions or insights that you'd like to share, feel free to send me a message on Instagram at worthy and well, or at Casey may Bergland.
And you can reach out to Matt as well through his website. Take really good care. Can't wait to chat with you soon. Bye for now.[01:01:00] [01:02:00]