Being Your Own Sugar Mama, Running a Purpose-Driven Business, and How Crypto is for Intuitive Witches with Michelle Pellizon
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Casey: [00:00:00] Hi there. And welcome back to the purpose map podcast. I'm your host Casey Berglund. Also founder of where the end. Well, sometimes I forget what I'm supposed to say in the intros. Just bear with me here. And today I am so excited to introduce to you Michelle paellas on the founder and head, which in charge at holistic racism and incredible company that integrates mysticism and spiritual wisdom with practical business advice and systems advice, and all kinds of beautiful, beautiful things.
Casey: I am recording this introduction. Couple of weeks after my in-person conversation with Michelle at her kitchen table in LA, California. And I'll be honest. I just relisten to the entire episode I listened to at once, immediately after we recorded it, because I was like, man, I gotta go back in there. There are some drops of wisdom, some truth bombs, [00:01:00] some incredible teachings that I need for myself.
Casey: And then listening to. The second time around. I'm like, holy shit. I just keep learning more. So this might be one of those episodes that you replay over and over and over again. Michelle tells this story about going from making $10 an hour as a professional dancer in New York city, to working as a celebrity fitness trainer, to fundraising for holistic autism to saying, fuck it.
Casey: To receiving funding from investors and deciding to be her own sugar mama. She shares her journey with money, getting paid and creating the highly successful purpose-driven business and community holistic system. I love holistic autism. I've been part of holistic systems community for the last probably year and a half and have just so enjoyed building a relationship with Michelle and building relationships with other folks in her incredible community.
Casey: And it just continues to deliver, you know, [00:02:00] anyway, at the end of this episode, Michelle goes on to school, us about cryptocurrency in witchcraft. So definitely. Tuna until the very end, this episode will absolutely inspire you as it relates to making money and getting paid. And to be honest, it may also, um, trigger you because money is such a sensitive topic, you know, and if that's the case for you, please meet yourself with loving compassion, notice in your body where you feel that maybe a little bit of dysregulation and then tune into your breath, come back and.
Casey: Engage with the rest of the episode with when you're ready. I just have to say that because man, I remember, oh, and still to this day, certain money conversations will send me into a state of fight flight freeze. You know, so you're not alone if that's the case. And I hope you can really receive this message with an open heart and open ears because there's so much deep, deep [00:03:00] wisdom.
Casey: I loved spending time with Michelle. I arrived at her. And she made me this incredible coffee with, um, I mean, I think it was oatmeal, but it tasted. Steamed cream. It was so good. And then she put a pinch of coarse salt on top and cinnamon, and I've been drinking my coffee like that ever since. And she also didn't let me leave without her favorite, like haircare product.
Casey: We both have naturally curly hair as well as a little evil live from my home to keep the, the energy feeling hot inside and, um, What a generous person she is. I think you're going to love this episode and I can't wait to hear what pops for you as you listen. All right. Let's get into it.
Casey: Thank you for having me at your kitchen table. It's my pleasure. This is such a delight to be with you in person.
Casey: And, [00:04:00] and to be able to connect and talk about all the things together,
Michelle: it feels like, um, the Dawn of a new time, like, I feel like, oh, wow, this really means we're emerging from COVID in some sort of substantial way to be able to have someone over and
Casey: talk. I know it's such a gift. I really is. Thank you, vaccines.
Casey: Thank you, science. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know it's such a delight to, to meet you in person.
Michelle: And it's also, I met a couple of people last night. We had no. Um, in, in Dennis, a meditation event, and I met a bunch of people who are part of the north node, who were part of holistic system and have been members for a long time, who I had never met in person before.
Michelle: And I felt like I'd met them a million. Like I'm like, oh yeah, of course we've met a million times before, but to be IRL was like, oh, but this is weird, but it's not weird because we know each other so well, yeah. It's like, [00:05:00] wow, this interesting familiarity. Yeah. It took
Casey: me about 15 minutes to like land and take in that you're this like beautiful, petite by spacious woman.
Casey: Like, you don't know how tall people are when you just see them through a screen. And then after that, I'm like, oh yeah, I know her. I met her before. She's the same person that I've talked to online. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle: I think also like there are a lot of people that you meet in person who are not the same. I agree as they are online.
Michelle: And there is that moment of like, what's this going to be like, yeah. And that's not because they're necessarily like, you know, cheating you out of the experience of them, but because sometimes it's easier for people to be behind a screen or just like, you know, talk to an anonymous group. Or I don't know, there's like some sort of energetic protection and it's, it's a different type of vulnerability obviously to like be in person with people.
Casey: Totally. As I was walking up your steps, I had this like little bit of fluttering in my heart, [00:06:00] like anxiety, uh, kind of like, how's this going to go? Shell is such a powerhouse business owner queen. And like, you know, what,
Michelle: if she sucks,
Casey: her house. I don't know.
Michelle: We're both great.
Casey: We're both great. I can't wait for. Uh, the listeners, our listeners, you who's listening, um, to hear just a little bit more about holistic racism and specifically through the lens of, oh, what I really want to know is about like your journey with money and getting paid in business,
Casey: that's like really open and broad.
Michelle: Well, I was a professional artist, right? So I was a dancer. And [00:07:00] when I graduated from college, I got my first job as a professional dancer and I got paid for shows. And I got paid $10 an hour for rehearsal. And that was I'm 32. So that was like 10 years ago in New York.
Michelle: And which is not that long ago to be paying, getting paid $10 an hour. Um, and then we got $50 a show. And so, and that was like a good gig. Like I remember I got the job right before I graduated and being my friends, all being like, wow, it's paid that's you get paid for rehearsal. That's amazing. So that was like my re my relationship to money.
Michelle: Like I grew up in that world of like, no one ever had money and like, we never asked for anything. And like, if you asked for something, you were being greedy, like. The art came first. Like how dare you want to get paid for rehearsal? Like what the audacity that you would [00:08:00] put your, prioritize yourself and eating over, over making art.
Michelle: You know, when
Casey: I hear stories like this, especially when people are living in a place like New York or LA, just like that, doesn't add up to me. Like I don't get it. Like, how is it even legal to get paid $10 for a rehearsal?
Michelle: Right? I'm like,
Casey: how did you live?
Michelle: I had like five other jobs. I was an sat tutor. I worked at Lulu lemon and I became a trainer and I went back to school to study nutrition while I was a dancer.
Michelle: And so I was a celebrity trainer. I just like fell into this weird gig and that paid me so much money. I got like whatever. Um, when I taught a class, I would get $75, you know, and when I taught privates. They were 1 25 for the person paying. And I think I got 60% of that. And so I remember being on the sub, being on the subway, coming from my apartment in the [00:09:00] early early hours, I'd have to take the early train.
Michelle: Um, so I'd get on the train at like four 15 and I had this little notebook and I would write out all my appointment. Because I have ADHD now I understand needed to like see everything in one place. And I would calculate exactly how much I would make from every single hour that I was working and like how I could function basically.
Michelle: Like, how was I going? What was that week going to look like? And like, how could I make more money this week? Okay. Let me add on two more hours to my eight hour training day. Okay, great. Now I can, like, I have a little bit more flexibility. So if I have to take time off to go to the doctor, I can go do that.
Michelle: And I don't know, like, it was kind of fun, you know, I like started to like make money and like, and I pretty quickly realized like, wow, if I'm only gonna make money for the hours that I'm working and my body is the thing that I'm selling, then I'm absolutely fucked. If I ever get injured. If I ever get pregnant, if like, what am I, what, what about when I'm old?
Michelle: You know, and for [00:10:00] me, like oldest, like 30, you know, like what about when I can't do this all the time? Uh, what am I going to do? And like, That's what if I get I'm like so tired, like how can I keep doing this forever? Like, what am I going to do? And I think that was like, I, I have such a like sense memory of that, you know, being cold on the Metro, calculating how much money I was going to make every week.
Casey: Yeah. And it sounds like realizing that it wasn't sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. That's something I could give at any moment and everything
Michelle: would be gone. Exactly. And at the time I was with someone, I was dating someone who was also a dancer and he made $30,000 a year and he had the best job in New York as a dancer.
Michelle: Um, And I think that like, if I hadn't been so in love with him and like wanted to be with him so badly and like build a life together, I would have been like, well, hopefully I was just like, Mary's more [00:11:00] rich, but, you know, cause that's kind of what my parents just told me. My mom said like, just as easy to fall in love with a rich man, is this a fall in love with a poor man?
Casey: Yeah. I mean, I had the same sort of messaging. I think so many women have that running in the background. Yes.
Michelle: I mean, that's why my parents quote unquote, let me be an artist. So they're like, well, you're just going to get married. So like go to a job you love. And then when you get married, you'll stay home with your kids.
Michelle: It's fine.
Casey: I'm trying to imagine that trajectory, that series of events took place. Like I just like, I can't even fathom
Michelle: no shade to anyone who wants to do that, but of course that's not, that's not my, I don't think that's in my wiring. Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. So then what happened after that? When did things start to transition or sort of like that moment when you're, and maybe it wasn't just a moment where it's like, this is not sustainable and, you know, like how did things shift and [00:12:00] change to the point where, you know, like holistic racism began and then,
Michelle: yeah, it's so funny.
Michelle: I haven't really thought about it in terms of how my relationship to money change, but I think you could probably trace it. I got really sick. I actually ended up, so I was like, okay, how can I leverage my way out of this? Like, I need to like move upwards. So I kind of like pitch to this place that I worked, this boutique fitness studio that I helped start.
Michelle: I was like, let me go open a west coast studio. And they were like, okay. Yeah, you've got all these clients who are in LA and New York. Like that totally makes sense. So I opened a studio when I was 25 in Newport beach. And like, that was such an interesting learning experience and gave me a lot of. It's kind of the ovaries to be like, oh, okay.
Michelle: I know how to do this. Like I just figured out how to get a lease. I'm paying the rent, I'm cleaning the bathrooms, I'm hiring people. I'm, I'm kind of like managing this entire thing by myself. Cool. Sick. [00:13:00] And, um, and then I got really sick. I got strep throat and I couldn't not work because I was in charge.
Michelle: And, and I was like, oh no, this is still bad. Like I thought I had more responsibility. And I thought that this was like, good. And I was going to get more ownership of this, but it ended up being a really bad business deal. And, um, I was like, oh, I need to like leave because I'm never going to get what I want here.
Michelle: And I'm getting taken advantage of, and I'm just going to like bring myself out. So I wanted a job that was the opposite of something that I was passionate about. I was like, I don't ever want to feel like I have to, like, I love my work so much that I will. Um, cross my own boundaries of what I'm worth too, because I like love it.
Michelle: Does that make sense?
Casey: Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah. You don't want to cross you off what you said. I don't want to cross me on boundaries of what I'm worth, because
Michelle: I love it. Yeah. Kind of like when teachers like buy supplies for their classroom, cause they're like, I know that I shouldn't be paying for this out of my own salary, but like, I love my job so much.
Michelle: [00:14:00] And I care about my kids so much that like, I'm going to do it. Didn't want to be a martyr. Yes. It's like, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. So I got a job in tech and I was like, cause I was like, what do I hate? Like what,
Casey: so unattached from that, it's just for the money. I mean, I don't know an entrepreneur who hasn't hit a point where they kind of dream about that.
Casey: Cause they usually start their business because it's their baby and they love it and it's, they're passionate. And then they realize like, honestly I find after making a significant amount of money that it's like, holy shit, my business needs to make double, triple that to pay me what I need. And it's kind of like, whoa, after you kind of exit the, I think about the taro, like the fool archetype.
Casey: Oh, my God, maybe I do want something. That's just for the money. Yes. Yeah,
Michelle: yeah, yeah. And, and I wanted to learn how business, like actually really worked, you know, like I wanted, I just felt like there's gotta be an answer here. [00:15:00] Like, I feel like I need to, that's how I'm going to make money. Right. I'm not like, you know, talented, I'm not going to be a singer or a famous dancer or a movie star or an incredible writer.
Michelle: Like I think if I understand business, like that's how I can, I can like make change in the world too. I felt like art that I was making, like, wasn't impactful because I was speaking to so few people as like a modern dance artist. Right. And I just wanted to help more people. And so when I looked around and I was like, who has the biggest impact globally?
Michelle: Well, those are all, they're all businesses like pretty much. So I just need to figure out how that works. And like, then I'll be able to I'll figure it out after that. So yeah, I started working in tech and like, you know, got paid 50 grand a year. I don't know, sit around and be a Jill of all trades, make a bunch of content, make a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of money.
Michelle: And then I went to another tech job and then another tech job and got these like little incremental bumps, but in salary. And I was like, wow, I'm making [00:16:00] $65,000 a year. I've made it, you know, I'm like, this is great. But also like, how do people live? Because that's
Casey: still not enough.
Michelle: It's like, it's a lot of money, but it's also not a lot of money.
Michelle: And especially in a place like LA, how do you have a child with like six, right. That amount of money, like, wow. Um, and then I was running with one of my coworkers who basically did the same job as me one day after work. And she was complaining about, you know, she's like, I need a raise. Like I'm not making enough money.
Michelle: I have a meeting on X, Y, Z day. And I found out she was making like double or triple what I was making. Like, it was like, it was some crazy bump and we were basically doing the same job. I was just like, whoa. Wow. Whoa. I didn't even know like that she made that. And then all of a sudden I was looking at people and I was like, what do you mean?
Michelle: Like, what do you make? You know, like, wow, interesting. And, um, yeah, I think that was like really a big threshold moment for me. I was like, oh, I can just like ask for more money. And so then when I started [00:17:00] freelancing, as I sort of left the tuck world and was doing more consulting, I just would ask for like crazy amounts of money just to like, see what would happen.
Michelle: Um, and often I would get paid like often it would work, you know? And I would talk to my white male friends and say, what would you charge for this? And then I I'd take, I asked for half of what they would charge, you know? Cause like, they'd be like, oh yeah. Seven days of research. Yeah. I charged someone like 20 K for that.
Michelle: Just no big
Casey: deal. Right.
Michelle: Are you on drugs? Like what is going on? Um, so yeah, that was. I think that was the thing started to change, to change. And then fundraising, fundraising also changes things. There's a
Casey: few things that you shared that I think are worth shining a light on like the power of talking about numbers, especially, um, especially if you're not a white man.
Casey: I [00:18:00] mean, they probably just do it, not thinking about it, but like, It's so easy to hide and sort of shrink, or just not be open about salaries and about what you're charging for things. But it sounds like you were so like expanded by this person you were talking to that made double what you were making for the same thing.
Casey: And it was kind of like, well, shit, like why not me? And that lit something in you that then made you go out and like experiment. Yeah. I think I
Michelle: had a glass ceiling or a ceiling to like what I thought I could earn. And I, and for me that was like six figures because I had made half that, you know, like as my salary that I was like, wow, I can't believe I'm getting paid 50 K a salary of 50 K like, wow, that's so cool.
Michelle: Um, and again, it's like nothing to sneeze at, but, but kind of is like, you know, in the United States to live on that. So. I just never thought I would make more than, than a hundred thousand dollars. I thought [00:19:00] I was like, when I got there. Wow. That'll be cool. Maybe I'll be like 45 and now I'm like, oh baby.
Casey: Yeah. And what was it like the first time you just like threw a wild number out there?
Michelle: You know, do you remember that? Horrifying. I had to do it on an email cause I like couldn't trust myself to say the number out loud. Um, and to just have them be like, sure, sounds good. Send the contract through. I was like, oh, that's cool.
Michelle: I think I was like doing consulting copywriting services and I was charging like probably a hundred an hour or something. It wasn't even that crazy, but it was like a part-time job. So I was working 30 hours and um, I could work from home and yeah, they were like, okay, sounds good. And then I was like, oh, I should ask her more.
Michelle: Yeah. That's what that means. That means that. And then I went and joined the. Um, everyone, there were, they were all men and I was like, oh yeah. Okay. I'm the cheapest person on this team for sure. 100% and [00:20:00] probably
Casey: the smartest,
Michelle: definitely the most emotionally intelligent and the only one who could do what I would I could do. And, um, Yeah. Like, I probably should've asked for more money, but it was a good
lesson.
Casey: Yeah. I mean, the things that we would teach our younger selves, right?
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I started to also learn that, um, some people are not there.
Michelle: There's not enough money in the world to work with them or there is, it's just like it's so it's, so you'd have to ask for so much in order for it to be worthwhile. And there were a couple of jobs that I took where I was like, wow, I'm getting paid so much to do this. Like, I can't turn this down. It's insane.
Michelle: It's bankrolling my, my business like that. I'm doing this consulting work, but I hate it so much. And I hate working with these people so much, but the number takes the sting out of like how much I hate. Right. It's not like, um, hustler archetype, right. That like, we all have a price [00:21:00] and. Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. I think that's worth double clicking because I see both, you know, maybe someone's working in a corporate career, that's become quite toxic for them and they've got the golden handcuffs on and, and keep getting promotions and are making so much money that it, it satisfies the need for security, but they're slowly like dying inside.
Casey: And I'm maybe exaggerating a bit like maybe an exaggerated
Michelle: example. I don't think it is though. I think there's a
Casey: lot of people. There's a lot of where that is, that, that, uh, the reality. Um, and I've also seen, like I've had clients too, where, you know, they're, they're starting businesses and they're coaching client and they're excited to take on, I think at the start, you kind of take on a lot of different types of clients before.
Casey: Build some boundaries and have some like qualifying criteria for who who's a yes. And who's like dating. Totally. Yeah. And I feel like there's so many lessons in that, [00:22:00] that one client that is just a nightmare, um, that, but still, it can be hard for people. You know,
Michelle: it's really hard to fire someone who's paying you to walk away from, to like, to know what the level of your, what your piece is worth.
Michelle: You know, and I actually, I talked to my dad a lot about this because he, my dad has ADHD. He was diagnosed, um, this year he's like 65. He's run his own business for ever, obviously. And, um, For like a majority of my life. He just wasn't around because he was working all the time and we've been talking about it a lot.
Michelle: He like loves that. I have run my own business and does not understand anything about it, but it's just like impressed, which we love. And, uh, it's, I mean, it's pretty
Casey: cool when you can like, make a bunch of money at something that your dad like can't even understand, [00:23:00] like, what is your profit? Yeah. He's like, trust me on this one.
Casey: It's it's it's
Michelle: awesome. He's like, it's really cool to like, have him be proud in that way. Um, but he has said so many times in the last few years because my partner and I lived a very particular life that we've chosen. And, um, when my dad asks. Do you want to go get lunch on a Thursday afternoon? I say, yeah, of course.
Michelle: And I clear my whole schedule so I can go get lunch with him. And I'm 32. If he at, at 32 at his age, when he was working, he never would have been, he wasn't home before eight o'clock at night and he would leave at five in the morning. So he just didn't have the flexibility in his life, but he was making a ton of money, um, or preferably not even making a ton of money.
Michelle: He was just hustling. Um, and he has said many times in the last few months, you know, there were, there were, there were times that I thought it was worth it right where I was like, [00:24:00] okay, but this client will like make me, uh, I'll like, it's such a good client. It's gonna be so good for the firm. And. It wasn't worth it.
Michelle: It's never worth it. It's never worth it to work with assholes. It always comes to bite you in the, in the ass somehow, even if you get paid and like a lot of the time you don't get paid, like from those people.
Casey: Totally. Yeah. It's like that dangling carrot that doesn't even end up providing you think it's going to, and not only that, it takes so much life force and energy and, and literal time space that that could be going towards someone who's a fricking to work with.
Michelle: Exactly. Or, or back to you, like in your family
Casey: for lunch with your dad.
Michelle: Exactly. Yeah. Right, right. And I think that that's something that like many, many entrepreneurs or self-starters have to sort of balance without knowing the future, right. Is like, oh, is this going to be worth it? Is this going to pay off to like, put the work in now to like sort of grin and bear it now, or.[00:25:00]
Michelle: Yeah, what am I actually not willing to sacrifice? And is that lazy? Is it I'm not motivated? Is it whatever I'm shortsighted? Like what, what is it, um, and grappling with that? Well,
Casey: what would you, you say now, 32 year old you to that previous version who, you know, had that shitty clients and then realized like, God, this isn't worth it.
Casey: Like, if you could do it over again, what wisdom would you offer yourself?
Michelle: I'm actually, I think that she handled it really well. You know, I sat kind of a, a barometer for myself where I was like, all right, if it gets to this, I walk and that's what happened. And it was great. I was like, perfect. And. Also really good reminder that like, oh right.
Michelle: I don't work with assholes. Right? Like, oh wait, sometimes you need to remember that those assholes exist out in the world and we get, I've gotten so [00:26:00] spoiled. I work with such delightful people and such delightful partners that the minute someone's like somewhat obtuse or difficult, I'm like, whoa. Oh, oh right.
Michelle: That's how some people do business. And like, I just don't have to deal with them. Cause I, I run my own thing and I just say, no, thank you. We don't have like that.
Casey: And how do you think that? No, thank you. Or like, it sounds like even a younger version of you had the boundary in place and then like didn't push her on.
Casey: You know, betray yourself like listened and went the other direction. You were at a part in your story where you were talking about raising money. Oh yeah. That was, how did that change your relationship with money getting paid? I
Michelle: mean, well, I don't know. I don't know about you, but it's really hard for me to ask for help.
Michelle: And like, I'm so responsible. I am so responsible. You are so responsible. Um, and so like learn to be so thrifty and so scrappy and just like, make it [00:27:00] work and work with everything you got. And, um, the F the like idea of asking for help. And even possibly losing someone else's money. It was so stressful for me.
Michelle: And I didn't want it because money to me, any gift always came with some sort of costs, right. There were some in like something wrapped up in it, like, okay, I'm going to give this to you with the expectation that there's something that you're going to give back to me. And I think that like my sort of like radical independence, um, and like rebellious nature that just doesn't like work.
Michelle: That doesn't work well for me. Like, I don't want to be indebted to anyone. I want to be able to make my own choices. I don't want to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Um, I really resonate with that. I think a lot of people do, especially women who. I don't know, like a lot of our choices are made for us, or we are often between a [00:28:00] rock and a hard place.
Michelle: Um, and we don't get to choose really like an actively consent to what we want to do. Um, and speaking like sort of high, high level, but I'll ground it down. Um, I just didn't want to, as I was raising money, I asked, I didn't ask for enough. I asked for like, you know, $500,000 and every person I talked to.
Michelle: Well, you need to raise at least a million dollars. And I was like, I'm going to die a million dollars. You know, like there's so much, and
Casey: we're talking
Michelle: to build holistic system to build the business. You weren't raising money for a different, no, no, no. I was raising money to build a holistic system and I knew it was a really good idea.
Michelle: And I knew I'd been part of companies that were stupid, that raised a bunch of money, but they were run by men. And
Casey: I love when you share it, I've heard you speak on different podcasts or just like in your community about like, realizing that these like CEO dudes that were running these tech companies.
Casey: Like, I don't want to say it, but like, like weren't that [00:29:00] smart, like, weren't that much smarter than you were smarter than you at all?
Michelle: Uh, 100%. I think that you'd be hard pressed to find. That many people, men who are running companies or women are running companies who are that much smarter than you. There are some out there.
Michelle: Absolutely. Who were just like, oh, you're, you're a fucking genius. Right, great. You are super fucking smart, but most of them are not, you know, they're average, like they're like us or they're maybe a little bit above average. And they just like, have, you know, they, they like have the chutzpah to just like do the thing and, or the privilege to do the thing.
Michelle: Right. And, um, yeah, that's, that actually is really empowering to me every time I remember, like these idiots can do it, I can do it. But I think about that about like kids too. What do you mean? I'm like, well, all these people could have kids. I could totally have kids.
Casey: Yeah. All these people in the world,
Michelle: everyone over the [00:30:00] span of time, if they had had children, then like, I can totally plague Europe.
Michelle: Like I could totally have a kid, like
Casey: COVID 19.
Michelle: I could do it. I could, I could probably figure out how to keep this living thing alive and not screwed up so badly. So like yeah
Casey: know, that's great. So same, same when it came to like raising money, raising a million dollars for,
Michelle: and like, I think like intellectually, I was like, yeah, this totally makes sense.
Michelle: I can do it. Like, it's a good idea. Anyone who invests in me, like that's the best investment they're going to make. Cause look at the dedicated person that I am and what I'm able to do with so little, like that's a no brainer investment. Yeah. And there's a huge part of me that was like, but I don't want to be, I don't want to be.
Michelle: Relying on anyone but myself, I don't want to, I don't want to answer to anyone but me. And when someone invest in you, they are your boss, they own part of your company. And if your business is so intrinsically tied with your soul and being, and [00:31:00] your beliefs and what you want the world to be, that can be hard, you know?
Michelle: And you, you are going to have to make compromise, compromises and sacrifices. Compromises are where you meet in the middle sacrifices or where you're giving something away, kind of like in a codependent nature. And I just didn't want to do that. You know, like I just, I didn't, but you went
Casey: along the path of fundraising for quite some time before deciding that.
Casey: So what was that turning point
Michelle: like? Um, I got assaulted by an investor and I. Had so mad. I, then I had that, wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back. And then I had a meeting where with two people who I really thought were going to get it and who like were conscious investors. And like, they had been hyped up to me to like, as the people, like they're going to get it and talking to them, I was like, oh, they're the same as everyone else.
Michelle: Wow. Like, they're the same. They just want to like monetize this important [00:32:00] spiritual unknowable thing. And I don't want to do that. Like, I just don't want to do that. And that was my sort of, I was sitting in this kitchen with Ethan and crying and he was like, I was like, no, I just don't want to do, I don't want to build that company.
Michelle: I just want to shut everything down. I don't want to do this anymore. And he was like, okay. You don't have to.
Casey: Yeah. That's kind of another example of the, like no amount of money can guide me along this path. Like when were talking about the corporate career, this shitty asphalt client, it sounds like you had that similar sort of awakening moment where it's like no amount of money that these investors could offer me would be worth the sacrifice of my own soul, my own vision, my own desire to have an impactful, intuitive business.
Michelle: Yeah. And that's actually what Ethan asked. He was like, okay. It does, it was really scary. [00:33:00] And, uh, I remember he was like, uh, what if they gave you like a $3 million check tomorrow? Those two people, like, what if they just wrote to you? And they were like, we believe in you let's do this. Would you take it?
Michelle: And it's like, He was like, okay, that's your answer? That's your answer? And thankfully, you know, I had him and I knew that I could always go back and get a job, folding pants at Lulu lemon. If I needed to, you know, like I could, I could figure things out. And so I gave myself two months to like make holistic and profitable and, um, it, it happened.
Michelle: So that was cool.
Casey: So, so cool. Yeah. Um, you said something earlier, when, in the like investor, when you were talking about investors and how you were like, I'm the best, I'm the greatest investment because you bootstrapping you, you know, and, and that really hit me in a certain way, because I think a lot of women actually have not that level of confidence or underlying imposter syndrome or [00:34:00] something, especially when it comes to.
Casey: Receiving money, like receiving a lot of money would put this pressure on that sort of like, am I good enough to be like, worth receiving that money? And I just thought that was really beautiful, how you were like, no, I'm like the best investment. Um, and I'm just curious, how has it, has it always been that way for you where you've just felt like I believe in this and I believe in myself, no.
Michelle: Okay. No, no, it really took actually Ethan being, like, he said that to me, he's like, you are the best investment. Like, uh, he did some like basic math, right. You know, I, I probably invested a thousand dollars into hostesses and when I first started, cause that's the leftover that I had. Oh, gosh, like probably 30 accident.
Michelle: Right. And he was like, look at what you've done with nothing. Yeah. That's an insane investment. Like return on investment. You're not even working full-time on this thing. And like, can you imagine what you would do if you were able [00:35:00] to like, have freedom, if you didn't have constraints the way that you've had constraints now, like of course you would do amazing things.
Michelle: You're not going to stop working. Just be and like stop like kicking ass because someone gives you money. Like that's going to motivate you to work even harder. And maybe even like, Kind of from a place of feeling like an imposter, right? It's like, I have to prove that I can do this. And like, almost that scarcity of like, I only get this shot.
Michelle: Like I can't squander this shot. I don't get another chance if I don't do this. Right. Which is not necessarily true, but can be true for a lot of people who experienced marginalization or have a marginalized identity. Um, we talk about this a lot in investing, but white men, a lot of white men can have a company that absolutely feels that the crashes and investors actually want to invest in them more after that because they've had a failure.
Michelle: And what you learned so much from failure, of [00:36:00] course, and that's great, but, um, They don't always provide the same sort of like, oh, nuanced perspective to people who are not white men who have had a company fail. It's like, well, you're a woman and your company failed and it looks like you got a kid, were you distracted?
Michelle: Wow. Yeah. Or if you're BI POC, it's like, well, you know, do you have give the community to really support you? Like, are you really that good at this thing? Like, you know, it's just a different, a completely different conversation. Uh, that's really unfair. And yeah, I don't know that, that didn't really answer your question about like tangent I think is important.
Casey: Yeah. What a great example of like privilege and marginalization, how that impacts, uh, new business owners or, or a business owner who's been in business for a long time, their experience when it comes to money and getting
Michelle: paid. Sometimes we need to quit. [00:37:00] Like sometimes we need to fail. Sometimes we need to say, pack it up like this isn't working anymore.
Michelle: And I think a lot of people who don't have the same privilege like that, that pen ultimate privilege, um, they feel like they can't do that because they won't get, we won't get another chance. I won't get another chance to prove myself. When, if you looked at assert a different way, I had different gender identity, it would be a badge of honor.
Michelle: It would be like it actually, your stock goes up when you failed. Like that's crazy.
Casey: Wow. You know,
Michelle: that's insane. It's it's, it's also like, wow, what would I do if that's how I thought? Like how much more bold would I be? Like how, what would my fit? My failure tolerance would increase clearly. Right? Because I know that the more I fail, the more I actually, I become more valuable because I am acquiring more experience.
Michelle: Totally. Yeah, and we don't always get that and we don't always get that, that option. Yeah. That
Casey: next chance. Yeah. [00:38:00] I had total chills when you were talking about, um, Ethan's saying like, look at how you turn this thousand dollars into like $30,000 or whatever it was at the time. And just like what a gift to have that type of support to give that little spark to yeah.
Casey: Do the damn thing, like you did it, you had it in you, but it sounds like he really reflected back to you, your gifts in business and showed you how you could be your own sugar mama.
Michelle: Yes, yes. Yeah. He really did. And like, he's the best. I mean, he, he also had business experience. He ran a business for 10 years and then got sick.
Michelle: And so I think that probably also contributed to why I didn't want to take money and like sort of sell, sell out in a way, not taking money as a sell out. But for me it felt like it would be compromising too much. Cause like his brain cancer, he directly correlates to. Compromising or sacrificing, uh, his beliefs and what he wanted and [00:39:00] sort of like letting investors walk over him and tell him, no, this is how you're going to run your business.
Michelle: And at the end, he was like, I just don't even want to do this anymore. Like, I need an exit, I need an exit route. And then he got a brain tumor. And so he was like, okay, well I guess this is my, um, exit door kinda sucks. Not what I wanted.
Casey: But that perspective, um, sounds like it was really supportive for you in the, the initial stages of holistic autism.
Michelle: Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, it
Casey: was awesome. Yeah, totally. And the first couple of months, you said you gave yourself two months to like make holistic as a profitable. And I'm curious what you would say were the, like keys to that success. The early success that I would imagine that that would just help really validate that like, okay, this is, this is a thing I'm doing, like we're in this and I'm my own investor.
Michelle: I was so [00:40:00] afraid to ask people for money. Like everyone has everyone from money to ask, to get paid for like any product or service I wanted to just like, you know, Radical generosity gives so much give over-give surprise and delight people. And by the time, and I did that when I was building the business.
Michelle: And, um, then when I gave myself that two months, I was like, well, now I have to ask them to like, pay for things really. Like, I'm not just like selling tickets at like, you know, a 10% margin where I'm like barely making whatever to, to an event. Um, now I like really need to like provide a product that I think is valuable and I need to ask them to pay me for it.
Michelle: I was still totally undervaluing myself. And that was just, I was like, will they, you know, like, will they pay for something they've gotten so much for me from, for, for free? Like, why would they pay for anything? And then they, they did, you know, like people want to pay. [00:41:00] But people want to help you. People want to support you.
Michelle: People want to pay you. You have to give them opportunities to do that. And like, not just one opportunity, cause like not everything is for everyone. And also like your business, isn't a charity. It's not a GoFundMe account. So like, you can't just be like, oh beanies, if you like supported me by beanie, it's like, no, I don't want to be any, I have great hair.
Michelle: I'm not gonna hide it under the beginning. So like you got to give me some more options. Kids like, give me a jacket, give me something else. Like give me some something to work with because I do want to support you, but like give me the opportunities to support you. And I wasn't giving people the opportunities for me.
Michelle: Oh, I
Casey: think a lot of people I get that, that your, your business is here to like help solve a problem for someone else. And by them paying you, you're helping them solve a problem. You're not just taking their money.
Michelle: Yes. Yes, exactly. And like, I don't want, I don't want to like shit on GoFundMe campaigns or, you know, like Kickstarters that people do for to get their business up and running.
Michelle: Right. [00:42:00] That's totally a time and a place. And I think sometimes like we miss the forest for the trees where we're like, okay, we're going to do this like crowdfunding campaign. And I'm going to give people, dad hats and stickers. And it's like, why don't you just start a business? Like, why don't you just offer something for real?
Michelle: Like, just do it, you know, like just become you, you can't, I know that sounds really harsh, but like
Casey: it's all into it. I'm into it. Like find a problem that you can solve for people. And charge money
Michelle: for it. And like, that's why you can always change the problem later. If you don't like the product or the service that you're offering, like it's fine.
Michelle: You know, like it's okay. It's okay. You can change it. What
Casey: was it offering that you sold? You said you were, you were selling tickets for like a 10% margin for events and things. And then you're like, okay, I need to make
Michelle: something. Yeah. Well, I had built software to help wellness practitioners run the back ends of their businesses, which was an undertaking.
Michelle: And so then I basically had this like double-sided [00:43:00] marketplace and, um, I was giving it away. I was just like asking people to come be on it. And then I was like, okay, it's $9 a month, which is still like, just ridiculously low. And we have like 300 people sign up.
Casey: Oh,
Michelle: okay, cool, great. That's cool. And okay.
Michelle: And then people were like, well, now I want a little bit more than that. And I was like, okay, well I can do this for like $29 a month. And they're like, okay. Oh, okay, great. Um, that was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. And then I had this monthly recurring revenue, this product that I'd built.
Michelle: And from there, like kind of like finessed with more like the community wanted of like, how do people want to learn? What do they want to deep dive into? And also started to see like, oh, here's a really big problem in this space. A lot of these people, these wellness practitioners who are signing up for the software I've built, they actually just don't understand how to [00:44:00] run a business.
Michelle: Right. And so, yes, the software is really great, but actually their root problem, the problem that I'm solving for them is not actually solving the problem. It's a band-aid and what I really, if I actually want to be supportive, I need to help them solve the real problem. Not just like put a band-aid on top of that problems.
Michelle: I need to teach them like how to run a business and, and be spiritual and like do both things at the same time. So that, that was kind of where holistic systems current iteration came from,
Casey: right? Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense that you can't just use a software platform without knowing how to run a business and expect that your business is successful because you have a fancy software.
Michelle: Yes. And a lot of tech companies rely on that. Right. Rely on actually the fact that you're going to like Squarespace might be a great example. Right. But like a lot of people are going to buy a website [00:45:00] and try to set up a business, but they don't know how to do it, or they aren't ready to do it, or they don't know how to code it.
Michelle: And they're going to sit on that website, keep paying $9 a month for it. And just like, it's almost as if it's like a micro movement towards what they want to happen. Do you know what I mean? It's like a self almost. It's like, well, I'm paying for this thing every month. So of course I'm like investing in my business.
Michelle: Right. When in reality, like you haven't opened it or touch it or done anything for it, what
Casey: problems have you solved for people?
Michelle: Exactly. Yeah. And, um, that's like a bet. I don't know, like that's kind of gross to like, run that type of business where you're kind of counting on people failing.
Casey: Right. Exactly.
Casey: And just keeping them
Michelle: paying for your platform. Right. Right. And I think, honestly, this happens a lot with coaching. I'm sure you could speak to it where people sign up. They think that paying for something is going, is the [00:46:00] alchemical reaction, right? Like, oh, things will change because I've paid for coaching.
Michelle: You still have to do
Casey: it. Yeah. And sometimes them paying for something is like that. Whoa, I'm valuing myself. I'm investing in myself and there's this kickstart, but then you gotta like, take some action after that and like change your own life and grow your own business and do the dirty work, you know, and have fun with it along the way.
Casey: For sure. Yeah. So at this point, Michelle, you've helped, like I dunno how many incredible intuitive spiritual business owners probably like 20,000. That's insane. I love that. And you're so gifted at it. So good at, I feel like integrating the world of mysticism and spirituality and intuition with business and practicality and like getting your feet wet and doing what needs to be done to run a business.
Casey: And I guess I'm curious about a couple of things. I'm curious first, when it comes to like business owners getting paid [00:47:00] or getting paid more or making more money. What do you see as a theme that sort of like makes that hard for them or blocks them or kinks up the hose of money flow?
Michelle: Um, well, just like not deciding what they want their salary to be like waiting for someone else to tell them what their salaries should be or waiting until they get a check and to be like, I'll give myself 30% of that.
Michelle: Like no decide what you, you got to work from the end day, like work backwards from the ending. What do you want you to make? $200,000 a year. Okay, great. How much money are you going to have to make in your business to make that happen? Then it becomes more doable. It's just like when you learn that it's like eight K a month to make a hundred thousand dollars in a year.
Michelle: Right? Cool. Eight K a month. That's two K every week. That's doable, right? Like that's one coaching package or that's, you know, four classes that costs 500 bucks, like, [00:48:00] Hm. That's pretty doable to sell.
Casey: Totally. I like like owning and being clear on what it is you want to make and what that actually looks like in a practical way.
Casey: Uh, I find that so many people have resistance to claiming that. Why, like, why? Like there's some, there's some money belief system in there. It's like, I mean, I get to witness when, especially women, um, or nonwhite men, like claim how much money they wanna make. They like light up and I'm like, why is it so hard to do that?
Casey: Like, why is it like a whisper? Yeah. I I'm with you. Why?
Michelle: Yeah. I, I don't know. I. I think that we're all just afraid of being greedy, you know, or selfish or, or, um, I think that like consumer is, um, and goodness, [00:49:00] like, and spirituality, like all of those things are interconnected and also, probably just like the puritanical nature of like United States, not so much Canada necessarily, but, um, also power, like money is power is related to power in a lot of ways.
Michelle: And when women hold power, that's intimidating too, and right. And. If what you want is to have partnership or to have like a
Michelle: if honestly like, oh, okay, let me get my thoughts all together. Cause I'm like, well, this is what happens when you're too beautiful, too. When you care too much about how you look quote unquote too much, right? It's like, well then you hold power. Like you hold [00:50:00] power over and then mental, you you're vapid or people, society tells you you're vapid and you're vain and you don't care about things that are important.
Michelle: And you, of course you couldn't be a thoughtful spiritual person because you're very vain. And also that means you're going to be a bad mother. You're very selfish, you know? And, um, And beauty money.
Michelle: beauty money, power, all these games are connected. We know that when we have power as women or people in these types of bodies, right? Feminine presenting bodies, we get punished. We get burned at the stake we get in trouble. We get officers' side.
Michelle: We get called bitches. Nope. We get told that we're difficult that no one's going to care. Like no one will love us. No, one's going to care about it. No, one's going to stay with us. We're going to die alone. And so we're like, okay, well, I don't want any of that to happen because that seems like the worst thing that could possibly happen, although it isn't the worst thing that could possibly happen, but that's what society tells us.
Michelle: Right. You're not dying old [00:51:00] mate. So, um, And why is that bad? Well, if we go back to the primitive accumulation in the beginning of capitalism and feudal Europe, well go, there let's go. When capitalism began and we stopped sharing land and having common space, older women who were not childbearing. Had homes had land that, that they had inherited often from their husbands and their husbands weren't around anymore because they died.
Michelle: And so these women needed to be taken care of by their community because that's how we worked. We worked in communities, we lose support and take care of each other, and we were sharing resources. But when land became privatized, we stopped sharing resources in the same way, but we still had these people in our communities that we needed to support and take care of, but they weren't giving anything back, quote, unquote, productive that could be monetized to the community.
Michelle: So they were really just sucking resource in a way out of the community. So the, the witch trials and the witch hunts of Europe [00:52:00] originated at this time to eradicate elderly women, women who were single, who had power in a way over the community, or were taking resource from the community. But weren't quote unquote, giving back labor literal labor, like birthing labor.
Michelle: Um, and who had something really valuable, which is land and how do you, how do you get that land from them? They tell them off, right? You call them witches. You, you know what you do, even something even better is you get their whole community to turn on them and ostracize them. And that's the beginning of all of like, it's not the beginning, but it's a huge factor in like why women, single women with power is terrifying.
Michelle: It's terrifying to patriarchy and capitalism. And I don't know, I feel like all these things are connected. I'm not necessarily doing a great job of like, oh, you're the through lines, but like,
Casey: you're killing it. It's like we are holding in our [00:53:00] subconscious, this like vast, vast, vast. Intergenerational ancestral cultural trauma,
Michelle: and not even our subconscious look at our conscious the way I'm just like so interested in this sort of like subplot of female founders who raised a bunch of money who have been torn down in the media or publicly canceled in the last two years, like who, you know, they're not great people and they don't seem to have very good business practices, but a lot of men who run companies are doing the same, if not worse, but not getting the public shame.
Michelle: Exactly. And one person who I've been looking at is Whitney Wolfe herd at Bumble. And I was like, why isn't I isn't she gotten canceled? Cause like there's no way she's an angel. She's right. She has a billion dollar company. You gotta, you gotta crush a few eggs or something like crack a few eggs. I don't know.
Michelle: I don't know what it is. And I'm like, there's no way that she's like this perfect angel person she might be. But, um, she's probably like a human. So why hasn't she gotten canceled and humble [00:54:00] keeps putting through legislation to protect. To like support women to protect women. They keep doing these, um, creating these altruistic experiences or acts where they're like, she's literally going in and testifying in con Congress, um, about revenge porn and how to make that illegal, or make that a crime when, you know, a man publishes revenge porn on the internet of someone he's dated.
Michelle: And it's not necessarily like intrinsically connected to what they do at Bumble. So Jason, but it's so interesting that for her to hold status as, as running a billion dollar company and not be canceled, she has to do all of these good deeds. Yeah.
Casey: It
Michelle: feels like so much effort. It's like, but I'm a good, but we're good, but we're good people.
Michelle: Whereas like we don't question, we're going above and beyond. Exactly. And we don't question. Other [00:55:00] billionaires in the same way. Right? Of like whether they're good or bad. Well, honestly, a lot of the time their morality does not come into play.
Casey: Hmm. So it's, it's no wonder that there's challenge and claiming how much money you want to make as a woman.
Michelle: It's exhausting. It's exhausting. Can you imagine how many good deeds you'd have to do in order to make a quarter million dollars a year and have people not hate you? I mean,
Casey: I can imagine, cause I know how many good deeds I need to do to make up much less than that, you know?
Michelle: Yes. You know,
Casey: like I think about, I don't know, I feel like so much of what you said really hits home, you know, like I think about even in dating the number of times I've been like, oh, I probably shouldn't wear the lipstick because I don't want to be seen as like, just beautiful.
Casey: Like I want someone to see my brain and how smart, you know, and then at some point you're like, fuck this. Like I get to be beautiful and rich and impact my community and badass business and like, [00:56:00] oh and all this. And still there's the like, Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck
Michelle: pedaling. Because you can, you can totally and completely believe that with every cell in your body and then you walk outside and someone's like, oh, that bitch.
Michelle: Yeah. Who does she think she is? Or like, yeah. I mean, she's good at what she does, but she kind of is like obsessed with money. Yeah.
Casey: Like it's like, you know what? I am fucking obsessed with money because money will help me make an impact in the world. Yeah. And I want to live a certain type of life, you know?
Casey: Like
Michelle: why is that bad? Yeah.
Michelle: What were you saying? Obsessed with money made me think about how. With like eating disorders and diet culture. How, when we're like consumed with thinking about calories for a body, we like are distracted from all the other injustices in the world [00:57:00] and how diet culture is a tool of patriarchy. And I kind of think that that applies to money as well, like, and the gender wage gap and all of these things that we're talking about.
Michelle: Like, if we're obsessed with like trying to figure out how to make more money and by the way, like sex work is not allowed, right? Like that's, that's not allowed, um, because women can do it, uh, then. Which I I'm saying that with sarcasm, for anyone who can't, you all can't see me, but I'm saying it was sarcasm.
Michelle: Like we're not allowed to do these, like all the things that we can do or knowledge do. Right. Um, yeah. Like wow. Making it, so, so, so, so, so difficult for women to like, just be cool and earn what they need to earn and like ask for what it's worth, ask for what they're worth or not even that you're invaluable.
Michelle: So you can't really ask for what you're worth, because like that's infinite dollars, infinite Bitcoins incident, and Ethereum, like just asking for what we need and [00:58:00] then some to be comfortable and safe and cared for, uh, like. How that could distract us from all the other things. Like, it's almost like that's the, if we keep pulling this thread, like what else will we, will we ripped down?
Michelle: You know? So like, let's keep them distracted with trying to close that gender gap, that gender wage. Wow. Oh my
Casey: God, Michelle. My mind is blown right now. I love that you like use example of diet culture. Of course, like we're, the unwell started not work right around like raising awareness about diet culture, but the, the distraction piece and all of these systems at play that keep women feeling like, uh, too much or not enough, and not asking for the money that they need or deserve to be paid for their offerings or services and business.
Casey: It's like. Oh, [00:59:00] it's kind of heartbreaking to it is I think
Michelle: about all those. And I think similarly with diet culture, women are often the people who uphold these standards and systems, we internalize, we police ourselves, right? Like, yeah, men, men have a role of course, but like, I'm more afraid of what women are going to think and say about me when it comes to money.
Michelle: I actually think that. My male friends, like love that I make so much money. Like, they love that I've got this, like bad-ass business in there. They're like, you can get off baller. That's awesome. And like my alumni, my female friends, don't like, they, they, they're not like, you know, trying to sabotage my business, but they, I know that it's uncomfortable for them and I don't ever want to make my friends uncomfortable.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that comes up a lot for women of like, well, if I'm going to make money, then like, I'm not gonna, I'm not [01:00:00] gonna have a lot in common with my friends anymore.
Casey: Yeah. It comes back to that sacrificing relationships. If I'm going to make money, I'm going to be too intimidating to attract a foreigner in a romantic way.
Casey: If I'm going to make money, I'm not going to be able to relate with my female friends in the same
Michelle: way, or like, Um, so the word gossip originally, Sylvia Federici has an excellent essay on Gord gossip and how originally it just meant to talk with your friends didn't mean it didn't have the negative connotation that it does with women now.
Michelle: Um, but that is another tool of patriarchy is to change language and sort of like deform it. So it means something negative when it was not inherently negative. Yeah. And I think about like drama, right? Like there's some drama around. Not having money. Like, it's interesting, like with love, we fucking love drama.
Michelle: Like reality
Casey: TV.
Michelle: We always have like, that's what the Greek tragedies were. Right. It was a way to [01:01:00] like, experience the feelings, the drama, like that's dope, but there's drama when you like, don't have enough for when you're trying to like, make some more and like around money, that can be a very like dramatic tale.
Michelle: And I wonder like how many of us are unconsciously afraid of, um, if I get rid of that drama in my life, what do I open up to their need? It needs to be filled, right? The drama hole needs to be filled doesn't actually, but like it will get filled. And then what will happen? Like will that gossip, that the drama, the gossip that we're talking about, like, oh, if my boss doesn't pay me enough, I'm not making enough or blah, blah, blah.
Michelle: Well, will that turn on me? Will like. I at least I can control the drama here. I know, I know this drama. I know this story. I know how to commiserate with this. I know how to gospel about this, but like, what if I don't have that ordering?
Casey: Yeah. Or even like, well, my life just be boring.
Michelle: Yeah.
Casey: Being happy, healthy relationship.
Casey: Right. [01:02:00] But when I was dating the narcissist, the rollercoaster was like, and I told
Michelle: the best stories at parties, right?
Casey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you. So how do we change this? You know, you said earlier, start by claiming how much money you want to make. I feel like we've, we've expanded that so far beyond.
Michelle: I think that we need to understand that money is not just energy and there's an energetic at play.
Michelle: Say more. I think Bitcoins and decentralized finance is. Such a revolution for women to understand and reclaim their relationship to money because we're at this nascent stage of decentralized finance and NFTs and Bitcoin and tokens and web three that like, if you're a spiritual person and believe in inter dimensionality, you [01:03:00] already understand how it works.
Michelle: You understand how it works a lot better than the average finance guy you really do. So it's like, it's kind of like energy and belief and like ripple and it, and like alternate universes, like. I could say so much about it, but I'm like,
Casey: oh, this is like a whole,
Michelle: totally, it is like a whole other, like, but
Casey: finish your thought.
Michelle: But it goes back to like belief in value belief and, and co-creation of value of like, okay, let's say we all buy it. We create a token, which is a type, it's not a coin, but it's a type of currency, right. Where we all buy into this token, we say, all right, it's the Michelle and Casey club and anyone who believes in this club and what we stand for by as a token.
Michelle: Well, as soon as people say, oh yeah, I believe in that I buy into it. [01:04:00] The value of that goes up, not just the token, but also of the value system and of the community and the more people that believe. And say, oh, I believe in this thing, the more value and wealth is created for everyone in that community.
Michelle: And then we can use that token or that coin to of course, like trade for things, right. To pay for things. But we can also use it as a reward system. We can use it as a way to, um, to note like special meaning or importance, or even to say, Hey, all of these places that we love and support, they now take the Michelle and Casey token.
Michelle: And so, and you get a 25% discount because when you use our token, they're like, because we all believe in the same things because we're like, We're simpatico, we get benefits or we are reinvesting in each other. And like, we understand that, you know, that like when you bring attention and energy to a [01:05:00] certain thing, it's going to grow.
Michelle: Right. Right. And the more people who believe in something just like when covens get together, the more powerful the spell is like we get that's what Bitcoin is. That's what NFTs are like. Also I can just go on and on about this because I think it's so interesting, but like the coolest thing about NFTs in my opinion, are smart contracts.
Michelle: And that's basically when you sell something you're going to continue. When you make something and you sell it as an NFT with a smart contract, you continue to get paid for that thing that you've made. Doesn't that make sense? Because think about like with energy, when you make something, let's say it's a, um, a pot, right.
Michelle: With your hands, your energy is in that thing. It doesn't go away just because you've handed it over to
Casey: somebody, your love, your intention, your labor, your energy,
Michelle: everything it's in the aura of that thing. And so if someone sells that turns on and sells that patent five years for [01:06:00] $500, when you gave it to them for 10 bucks, well, part of that should be passed back to you.
Michelle: Like your energy is still there. Your energy is what makes that things valuable. And some sort of wouldn't exist without your energy. Exactly. And how, how cool is that? Like, and with smart contracts, we kind of can, like, we are literally reflecting that, right? Like you get rewarded, you get compensated for your energy, for your, the work that you did.
Michelle: And not just the one time that a transaction occurred, but on a continuing basis as that thing becomes more valuable, which of course incentivizes you to like, Make make your work even better, right? Because it's going to increase the value for everything that you make. And that also means that anyone who holds what you have, like they want to support you and make your work better.
Michelle: Yeah.
Casey: Yeah. And everyone kind of rises
Michelle: yes. Together. And like, we, I know we could go [01:07:00] on and on I'm giving like the most rudimentary, probably like horribly butchering
Casey: example, Michelle, I have so much,
Michelle: but like, I, that all of this is, I mean, we can make communities with about three that are like, we, we decide what is valuable to us.
Michelle: Right. We make basically a community online and a mini city, a digital city, a virtual city, where we make the rules where we decide what's valuable, where we decide what the societal expectations are. And we aren't. We, we don't have to look at the outside world and follow by those rules. We get to
Casey: create the anti
Michelle: patriarchy.
Michelle: Yes. And, and it requires buy-in from everyone. And so that's also really interesting, but I think that if you're not already buying Bitcoin, if you're not, if you're like tapped out from that conversation or anything about decentralized finance, I would just like sleep on it. Maybe give it a second [01:08:00] thought, because I really do think that you're going to be incredibly gifted at it.
Michelle: If you're already a spiritual, intuitive person, like you're just going to get it. You're just going to get it like you will. And there's an awesome opportunity to learn and unlearn our sort of myths around money and wealth and
Casey: accumulation. Where could people who are like intrigued by this part of the conversation?
Casey: Start
Michelle: like dip a toe in, oh my gosh. Okay. Well go follow crypto, which on Instagram. Okay. I'm obsessed with her. I'm like, she just started this Instagram page and I've, I think I've sent it to like 40 people. I'm like, you gotta just follow this girl because she knows what she's talking about. And she's been buying and selling crypto for like five or six years and she's just cool and smart.
Michelle: And my name is crypto wedge and, um, you know, like that conversation around like, well, everyone's stupid. Like if, if these idiots could figure it out, so can I, that's how everyone starts with the coin. Yeah. Everyone's like, I don't understand it. That's
Casey: a whole [01:09:00] alternate
Michelle: universe. Even people who are making, making Bitcoin and NFTs are like, I don't really get it.
Michelle: Yeah. So just, just go follow your curiosity and ask questions and like, listen to podcasts. If you're embarrassed to ask questions and go on Reddit, honestly. You, there are, there are so many amazing resources out there. Just be curious. And also things are changing so quickly. It's not like it's not too late.
Michelle: Like you're not behind. If you're listening to this, even in the next three years, you're still probably ahead of most people, only 5% of people hold cryptocurrency. That's not that many people. That's not that many people. So like get started now. It's just like investing, you know, Just to get started. Yeah.
Michelle: Just get started. It does not matter. Even if you're investing a dollar every month, if you start sooner, it will pay off. So like, why wait, you
Casey: know, Ooh, I'm so inspired by [01:10:00] you right now. I didn't not know exactly where this conversation was going to go or like it's so delightful to be in that space to a certain extent about money and business.
Casey: And you know what? Let's throw a little crypto in there. The end.
Michelle: Yeah. Wow.
Casey: Any like final words to kind of like wrap up this, what haven't I asked you that I should have asked you as it relates to getting paid, being in business crypto. Oh man. The anti patriarch,
Michelle: like where there's so many things I want to say.
Michelle: Everyone should check out at avalanche Avox is the a V a X is the, um, I'll make sure I little post that. Yeah. Um, because there are really eco-friendly cryptocurrency and that's some of the like [01:11:00] kickback around crypto right now is that to mine, it is energetically expensive. Right. But, um, it's like far less expensive than gold, you know, energetically using using energy.
Michelle: Um, not just like spiritually energetically. And once the infrastructure is built around cryptocurrency, which is like probably in two or three years, the amount of energy that we're going to need to use crypto will decrease. So substantially that. It's a far better choice for the planet. Um, so in case anyone's like, no, I'm just missing that out of pocket because of that reason I hear you.
Michelle: And like, there are a lot of solutions. In fact, there's cryptocurrency that is getting created by the tides, um, by like actually out in the ocean, there are these mini little computers that sit on the waves and as the waves move, it minds the crypto. So they're literally just using the power of the ocean and of the sun.
Michelle: So like there are a lot of [01:12:00] options out there busting that myth, right? Yeah, exactly. And I would definitely check out avalanche because it's a, it's a really great coin. It's actually done phenomenally well, um, over the last couple of months, but, um, what else have you not asked that I can answer? I mean, you
Casey: haven't yet shared in too much detail and this may be the perfect place to like, add this in about just like.
Casey: What's happening with holistic system right now and where people can kind of learn more about your genius as it relates to like money and getting paid and business and
Michelle: crypto talk about getting, I don't talk about money that much. Do you think you
Casey: just make it, but you do, you do like,
Michelle: just a little bit about it, but I feel like you're so
Casey: wise at helping people to set up the systems to support their businesses and businesses are here to make money.
Casey: Totally. So you, you, like, I feel like you don't directly talk about money very [01:13:00] much necessarily. Um, and here's an invitation my dear projector to talk about money directly more. Cause I think it actually is really empowering for, especially like women or nonwhite men who need to hear about it. Thank you
Michelle: know.
Michelle: Totally. Yeah. I think my hesitancy comes from, uh, like the sort of MLM nature of a lot of people are talking about money on the internet. Buy my course to learn more about money. So you can be an affluent, blah, blah, blah, the last bit.
Casey: That's not your like energetic, fair print, right? Like that just would never be you, you know?
Casey: So, so like
Michelle: it's my deepest fear,
Casey: but everything at holistic system helps intuitive entrepreneurs make
Michelle: money a hundred percent. Well, yeah, like I think when,
Casey: and in a way I'm just going to add that allows them to be who they are as like spiritual, intuitive, [01:14:00] gifted. Yeah.
Michelle: I was going to say something kind of out of pocket, which is why I stopped myself. Like, when you're just like yourself, you make money. Like when you kind of like get over it. Yeah. You know, like, and you have fun,
Casey: not worrying about being too much or not enough for getting burned at the fucking steak.
Casey: Like you just show up. Serve people as you are.
Michelle: Yeah. And you have fun. And I, that sounds so trite because like I've been in that position where you're like, I cannot possibly have fun. I don't have any money. Like I am overdrawn. So like, this is not fucking fun, but I do see a direct correlation with the more fun that I have.
Michelle: The more weird I am, the more I just embrace what makes me laugh and what I'm interested in. Like that's charming. That's what we're talking about in the north node this month. And this quarter and charm is that combination of like, absolutely surprising how you, you did not expect someone to say that or do that, or be that, [01:15:00] and.
Michelle: Honest earnestness where someone's like, yeah, I just fucking love Legos. I feel like that is so charming. I would never expect you to like, like that is so cute, you know? And like, tell me more about that. And it's, that's riveting and delightful and, um, charm is not like, you know, suave guy charm, charm is like, when someone surprisingly opens the door for you or like, you know, compliments you in a, in an interesting way about, I don't know, you're your perfect eyebrows.
Michelle: And you're just like, that's so charming. Um, so I feel like that is all connected to the money thing of like, when you have more fun, like charming people are fun. Cause they kind of like don't care. What other people think about them? I like, I like this weird thing. I love it. Earnestly, um, supremely uncool about it and like that is trauma, you know?
Michelle: Totally.
Casey: It's completely true. I had the realization on this trip actually, um, [01:16:00] that my favorite clients that I've worked with have come to me through me being on adventures, you know, like going to Santa Barbara for a wedding where I know two people and I'm like meeting people for the first time and like bringing the, yeah.
Casey: The supremely uncool parts of it, because you're part of me, there's a ripple effect of that. And, and it, it, it is wild to me to think of how many people I've worked with that have come to me in this like really odd, weird way because of random adventures I've been on where I feel like most joyous, you know?
Casey: So it's really cool.
Michelle: That's kind of like. Circling all the way back to land this plane. We were talking about men who fail, how every time they fail it, like increases their, you know, their, their worth, their value. It's like, almost like the more you own your Supreme on coolness, like that makes you so much cooler.
Michelle: Totally. And like, you can't, you can't like orchestrate that. Yeah. You know,
Casey: you did an Instagram story [01:17:00] recently about like things that used to be cool that are and you also were like, like I'm cool, Michelle. And you're like coolest fucking person I've ever met. So yeah. Cool. We'll make you bang alongside crypto.
Casey: It's true. It's true. Okay. Well everyone go check out Michelle and her amazing team at holistic racism. I'll make sure all of your links, anything else that you want to share? We have posted and I'm like, so happy to have done this. Thanks for having me. Yeah. You're so welcome.
Casey: Who, what an episode. Hey, when I said in the intro that I listened to this a couple of times and probably will many more. Do you see what I'm talking about here? Uh, Michelle is just like sparkling. Light and wisdom and knowledge bombs and, uh, a big heart, you know, and [01:18:00] to integrate this wisdom. I mean, I would say, let your body lead, uh, sorry for that.
Casey: I had to drop that in there. I am feeling like. One of the things that really intrigued me about the conversation was learning about crypto, to be honest. And although that seems maybe a bit advanced or something, that's a bit scary to some of you listening. Um, I think Michelle Gates gave a great point that we're all kind of idiots when we start.
Casey: And, uh, you know, I find that empowering, frankly, so that's one of the big takeaways. And then I also feel like. The piece about experimenting with price points, like just throwing numbers out there and maybe not being so attached to what that means about you and just like noticing how that feels in your body.
Casey: I feel like that part of her story where she talked about experimenting with charging different amounts of money, also [01:19:00] really expanded and inspired me. So I guess I invite you to integrate this wisdom in a way that serves you best. Um, I would follow your curiosity. Like when I made that little joke of you probably tired of hearing me say, let your body lead.
Casey: Like, is there one thing from this conversation that you're curious about, curious to check out a place to start that will help you to not just make this another podcast episode that you listened to while you're cooking on your way to work and then forget about later, but actually a podcast episode. It gives you wisdom.
Casey: That could be life-changing frankly, you know, like what does that one thing for you? I invite you to contemplate that and choose your next best action. Okay. That's all for today. I'm so excited to talk to you next week. Can't wait, take care. [01:20:00]
