Casey Berglund:
Well Nicole, I'm already getting waves of chills because I think I'm feeling the energy of Jack and Jane here with us.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
She's definitely here.
Casey Berglund:
Exactly, right. And you know, it's just so funny how deeply you and I both connected over talking about our dead parents. And although that is not going to be the focus of this episode, I think it is worth acknowledging that that energy is always present. And I don't know about you, but when it comes to creations, especially when there's been a prior connection over loss and grief and loved ones and the spiritual awakenings that come with that process, I feel the energy extra. And so I didn't know exactly what to expect with you coming into the studio today, but it does not surprise me one bit that I'm feeling this—I don't know—like frequency, this support, these chills. How about you? What are you noticing in your body or in your energy right now?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
I feel grateful. You know, I think that there's a longing to have that kind of knowing with someone and like that understanding, and that I found with you through talking about our grief. And then also learning that we have a lot of other things in common. But I'm just grateful to find places where I can be authentic and feel like I can process my grief that much more. And there's a lot that you can do on your own, and then there is something that happens between people, right? Like in between, in conversation, or the way when you have to say something out loud and put it into words—just the same as journaling. Or when you say it out loud, you hear yourself and can self-correct or grow or learn.
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. You know what's coming up exactly, and it's occurred to me over and over again. And this is kind of ironic saying it because I was gonna say, you know, we don't just have to process these things with our therapists. And it's ironic because you have a background in psychology. So in some ways, through talking to my friend Nicole, I'm also like processing things with an expert in this area in some ways. So yeah, I love that the shared connection is its own form of healing and processing and honoring and remembering. And what is really standing out to me right now, and what I'm really curious for you to speak on a little bit more, knowing that you have a background in positive psychology—like, I think a lot of people would put positivity and loss and death maybe at different ends of the spectrum. But for folks who know loss and death, I think they eventually see how they're actually kind of connected. So I'm curious what you see as it relates to how grief opens you to positivity, or the role or the intersection between your area of expertise with positive psychology and your personal experience with losing your mom.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Well, I think it's really important to do a brief positive psychology 101 because there's just so much misunderstanding about what it is because of the title, because the word "positive" is in it. Up until the late '90s, psychology was rooted in pathology, and all of the work had been based on studying what was wrong with people and categorizing mental illness, developing the DSM—which is the diagnostic manual—and coming up with ways to treat and lessen symptoms. And there was a lot of progress, you know. And psychotherapists were using that information to have conversations with each other and with their patients, and that was great. But what was happening was that the research was showing that while people were getting better in terms of a reduction of symptoms, they weren't necessarily reporting higher levels of life satisfaction. So the reduction of symptoms, or processing—even processing pain or addressing grief—does not create meaning and purpose and life satisfaction.
Casey Berglund:
Whoa. I mean, that kind of makes sense, and I'm also a bit shocked.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah. So they don't—they're different. Like, so solving a problem—a lot of times we're waiting, right? We're solving a problem. When this happens, when I finish this, then I'll be happy. And I think we all know and have been at that point when you've accomplished a major goal and it's like, wherever you are, you know, there you are. And that it isn't—the process sometimes is what is bringing us a lot of the meaning and purpose and happiness that we don't completely appreciate and understand—the joy of the process. And that is part of what positive psychology is about.
So back to positive psychology 101. So that's one piece: that the reduction of symptoms did not equate to higher levels of life satisfaction. And while we were studying people and the causes of attachment issues or pathology, depression, anxiety, we weren't studying why there's a subset of people who thrive in the midst of trauma and grief. People handle things differently, and not all people—you know, people who go to war, there are veterans who don't get PTSD, right? And so what is it about the people who are thriving, who are flourishing, despite life's challenges? Because it's not because they don't—like, right, nobody gets—we none of us get out without a human experience. Yeah, I mean, the human experience, right? And I understand that some are more lucky than others, but nonetheless, being human, part of being human is suffering. And so there are people who, despite those things, report high levels of life satisfaction and are flourishing.
And so what Martin Seligman, who was the founder of positive psychology, said is, "Look, we need to study with the same scientific rigor why some people flourish and some people don't. What is it about these people that we can learn from?" That the majority of us who are just trying to move north of neutral, just trying to glean a little more peace, a little more hope, a little more connection—what can we learn from them to share? And the key was to do that with the same scientific rigor that we had done in studying pathology, to really understand the science of human flourishing.
And so positive psychology is about understanding what gives genuine life satisfaction, meaning and purpose—the study of human flourishing. So by no means is it about optimism, although they study optimism, right? Like, how does optimism impact life satisfaction or your ability to meet goals or to maintain connections and success? But it's also about how can we compete with the negativity bias? Because we're so hardwired to solve problems and to look for what's going wrong from an evolutionary process. But we're equally wired, in terms of our autonomic nervous system, to be looking for peace, calm, and contentment. We just don't story it. We just don't notice it in the same way, but we need to. And to compete with this negativity bias and to have this balance—and so that's a little bit...
Casey Berglund:
Positive psychology 101. I know that I just jumped right into the deep end with that initial question, and I think it was really important to sort of back it up and give me and the listener like a 101 on positive psychology, because I think even I had a perception that there could be a risk of bypass in the positive psychology realm—that it's all like rainbows and butterflies. And how do we practice gratitude, right? Which, of course, practicing gratitude is hugely impactful, but that's not positive psychology, right?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yes. It's—no, it really is a science. It's like we wanted to understand the real tools of survival, the real tools of well-being, not toxic positivity or superficial optimism, but about really knowing what your values are, what your strengths are, what you're here to do, and finding ways to practice that every day and connect to that and be the best version of yourself.
Casey Berglund:
Okay, so then I'd love to understand—maybe without—let's take the grief or difficulty or big life change challenge out of the picture for a moment and just think about the average person who's going about their day. What does positive psychology have to say? Like, what do we even do to increase our capacity for flourishing? You know, this is the Purpose Map podcast, so people care about finding inner fulfillment and aligned success and are seeking purpose, dharma, ikigai. These are things that come up in this community. And so I do want to come back to what happens when we're going through a really intense experience, how does this apply? But how do we use positive psychology or what you've learned through the research to support being a human who thrives?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Okay, I'm gonna talk about one foundational piece of positive psychology. And there is so much, but when Martin Seligman basically thought the same thing you do—like, "Okay, I have a good idea. I know that we need to study what's right with people and not just what's wrong." Yes, you know? And the goal in life isn't just to get by but to, again, flourish, to thrive, to be joyful—not just not having—and it's not just about moving away from pain, but also moving towards something good. Yes.
In order to study it, he—they needed a format, right? Like they needed a way to do the real research about these questions that you're asking. And so the first thing they did was establish a foundation. They got a tremendous grant and they combed through 2,500 years worth of texts written on what makes life worth living. And I love that you were speaking to dharma.
Casey Berglund:
Like 2,500 years worth of texts?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah. So on moral ethics, theology, philosophy, moral—yeah, I think it's moral ethics, psychology, right?—and spiritual texts from all over the world. And they partnered—yeah—with 55 well-known thought leaders from across the world. It's really important to me—I know it is to you too—that this was across religions, across contexts and cultures and across time, about what had been written about, again, what makes life worth living. And they came up with these six overarching virtues they call them—like wisdom, courage, temperance, humanities, justice, these sorts of things—which universally, if you go anywhere in the world, people are gonna say those are good things, right?
So these six overarching virtues. And then they identified 24 character strengths that fall underneath these six virtues, and they are a way of showing up and demonstrating what we value the most. Like they call them "values in action." So if wisdom is one of your values, love of learning would be a character strength, and the way that you show that is by all of the books you love to read and the podcasts you listen to. Yeah. And here's the key. I'm getting it. I know that the positive psychology 101 can get a little dry, but we're getting to the...
Casey Berglund:
Fun part, right? The "so what do we do?" part.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
So we're almost there. So they found this, and then they developed a survey to give to people where you can take it. It's called the VIA survey.
Casey Berglund:
VIA.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Values in Action. And it's free, and you can take it on their website. And...
Casey Berglund:
Everyone go take the VIA survey!
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
And you can find your top—your 24 character strengths in order, so one to 24. And once they were providing this survey, then they were beginning to study the impact of these various character strengths on your success, on your happiness, on your longevity, on depression, on anxiety—like all the things, right? Like, how do these virtues show up? Mm-hmm. So they study, study, study, study, study. And they started to see that the top five character strengths, which they now call signature strengths that we all have, are the things that are most inherent and effortless to us and bring us the most energy—so much so that sometimes we don't recognize them as the strengths that they are. Which is one of the reasons why I love doing this work, because sometimes we value things that we work hard for more than the things that come effortlessly to us.
Casey Berglund:
So true.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah, it really is. And so we admire things in other people that are hard for us and take for granted the things that come effortlessly to us. And so what they found is that if we use four out of five of our character strengths every day, we are 90% more likely to report higher levels of life satisfaction.
So let me give an example. Mine is—and so that's using them optimally. So all these character strengths, you can either overfunction or underfunction. And so you learn a lot about your mood in that way. And then there's what they call the golden mean when you're using it optimally. For me, honesty is my number one character strength. And honesty as a character strength means you show up without pretense, that you take responsibility for your feelings. So if I hurt someone's feelings, I am quick to—uncomfortable—apologizing. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. But it also falls underneath courage, because I'm willing to have difficult conversations or speak up when it's not popular. So—and this is the courage part—and it does take courage to be authentic, right? And I would be shocked if this isn't one in your top five too, because I tend to have the kind of conversations we had and the kind of vulnerability with people who share this strength, right?
Casey Berglund:
I know that this is one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're gonna take it after this podcast for sure.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
So one of the things that positive psychology does—and this is just one tool, and taking the VIA is that you find out what your top five values, your character strengths are, and then you figure out what you're doing in your life and how you're applying them already and notice and savor and become more aware of the energy that you get from those things. I have chills. So for me, getting back to honesty, when I have those authentic conversations like we had about grief, that literally makes life worth living for me. Like that energy, that truth, that being vulnerable gives me energy, right? But for somebody who—that's not their character strength—wow, that would be really draining. They would go home and maybe—not that they wouldn't have valued it, yes—it's like, but they wouldn't have been...
Casey Berglund:
We were vibrating. We were like—the next—we went dancing.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
We—yeah, we closed the place. Let's face it. Down with dancing, right? So this was energizing. This is how we both know it was, because, again, it would be meaningful...
Casey Berglund:
Death for hours, and then we party!
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yes! This is the perfect example. I wouldn't—I didn't plan this, but this is the perfect example. Because someone else might have really felt drained from that conversation and gone home and gone to sleep, and that would—that's okay. But it's when you know that it's a life force for you, right?
And so another example, though, and what I really have grown a lot through, is understanding when I overfunction honesty. I'm tired or hungry, and I'm blunt, or I'm not reading the room. Like, I might think I'm with someone who will be comfortable with me talking about the dead parents club, and I see them go flat, like, "Oh, that's really personal. I don't feel comfortable." Or, you know, and I put a truth bomb on someone. Yeah. And I go, "Oh, that was too much." You know? And I gotta reel it in. And using my honesty, I say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I get overly comfortable with the dead parents club. I'm fine. I'm okay." I'm doing it to make you uncomfortable. So I can use my strength to make it okay, or just—or maybe just reel back in, right? Sometimes just—as a leader, I've been too blunt, not cruel, but blunt. And then in my personal life, maybe mean. Like with my husband. Might get—that isn't...
Casey Berglund:
Isn't it funny how the worst of us can come out with the people...
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah, I'm not proud.
Casey Berglund:
But, you know, it does happen.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
So that's, you know, honesty overfunctioning. And so I have to reel it in. And when I do that, I feel—for me, the overfunctioning feels anxious and high alert, like, "Oh, I've done something wrong." Then the underfunctioning of honesty I noticed a lot more in my thirties and early forties in the work environment where I had the impostor syndrome and I wouldn't participate in meetings. I wouldn't share my ideas because I was afraid of looking dumb or—and in rooms with physicians or whoever—and just was withholding information or not, or also in terms of, yeah, just communicating in the world in your own address, not participating in the same way, not being courageous and sharing ideas and engaging. And so when I would leave from those meetings or, you know, those—I would feel more sluggish, more than anxious. To me, like a little more like depression.
And so this varies for everyone in terms of what they're over—but I'm very clear when I'm kind of feeling like low energy and even a little bit blue, that one of the ways to check in with myself is to say, "What aren't you being honest about?" And it could be with myself, it could be with someone else, or what could you communicate to help that person succeed with you, you know, in the relationship?
In positive psychology, knowing your top five signature strengths, having a sense of your over and under, what that looks like and what it looks like optimally, and starting to really notice these micro-moments of energy and joy and understanding them in a deeper way—and then you savor them. You savor them, you understand them, and then you seek to use them in new and novel ways. And the other—that—and that's the other part of positive psychology is, once you're really clear on these strengths and what literally makes life worth living for you, then you start building goals and putting yourself in spaces where you get to use these strengths more and you master them.
So human flourishing is about knowing what your gifts are and building your goals around being better at what you're already good at, rather than spending a bunch of time on the things that don't come naturally, that don't bring you energy and you don't really love. And so many times, like New Year's resolutions, for example—why they, all the research shows they fail—is because they're usually around weak—what I'm using the word "weakness," but not your strengths, right? And so it's hard to keep up with them. But the science completely shows that our greatest potential in all aspects is knowing what our strengths are and learning how to optimize and build on them and setting goals around being better at the things we're already good at. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's positive psychology.
Casey Berglund:
This makes so much sense. I feel so validated by this conversation so far, because just this morning I woke up two hours earlier than I normally do, and I was so excited because I have three podcast conversations today. And I have been happier since I decided to put this podcast series out after a year and a half of not podcasting. This is no mistake, because likely honesty is one of my top values. And I have been feeling those symptoms of when you talked about feeling low energy, or for me it shows up as self-doubt. Like when I'm too internalized, like maybe I'm journaling too much, but it's just me. I'm not expressing with my voice with other people. It's harmful. It's harmful.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yes.
Casey Berglund:
But when I am using my voice in a space where I know that I create safe places for authentic conversations, I know that I choose—every guest in this series is someone I have a deep, meaningful relationship with who also is brilliant and has a big heart and has something to share with our listeners. But it's like I know that we can be here together, and I know what it feels like when I'm bringing my honesty game and it doesn't land. And for me, it turns into bitterness and resentment, and I spiral around being "too much."
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel that sometimes too. Like, "Oh, you can't hold space for me," you know? And yeah, it can hurt your feelings for sure. And I mean, we could go down the rabbit hole. Don't lie to me.
Casey Berglund:
Oh, don't you fucking lie!
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Don't lie to me. Yeah. So, you know, so you learn about that. But that's another, you know, part of this, is that then you understand that in a different way, you know, and you can reframe that, of how it's challenging you through a strength. I can't wait for you to take it. I have to say that I really bet that we're gonna find out even more about the energy you're getting from this podcast when you take your character strengths, because I have a sense that you might also have love.
Casey Berglund:
Oh, definitely.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
And so, yes. And so love—it's about this reciprocal caring and sharing and having these meaningful conversations, connecting.
Casey Berglund:
Can I just tell you that part of my work is helping people to navigate these moments in their life where they were totally at their best and then actually crystallizing in three words—and this sounds insane until we do it, and it's so meaningful—what your core purpose statement is? And I actually have two. One is "I embody love," and the other is "I illuminate truth." And so, look at love! They are literally the guiding anchors. And to me, they're actually—embodying love is underneath illuminating truth. Like, truth is sort of the expression of love, but love is the underlying force of everything.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
That's fascinating. Those are the two that I was—you're present here. Yeah, I picked out.
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. Yeah. And it makes so much sense. And it's like I know when the world is changing, or when, you know, say my business revenues are up or down, or I'm questioning, or I moved to another country and I'm like, "Who am I here?"—I know that if I'm remembering that I'm a vessel for love, and if I can have authentic, honest, truthful conversations, like at least then I'm connected to a piece of myself.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah. In positive psychology, it would be—it all sounds so obvious once you know. Sometimes when you say it out loud—but to your point, when you move to another country, if—and when love is one of your character strengths, so I'm using this language—then you're disconnected from a life force. So you have to look for these conversations, and it's not love like your partner. Love—it can be just caring and sharing conversations. It can happen with the barista, it can happen in the community. But it's just that reciprocal caring and sharing and understanding that the health of your relationships and the opportunities to connect make life worth living for you.
Casey Berglund:
Yes. There's something that you said earlier that I want to slow down. You talked about savoring those moments when you're using these strengths. And this—I don't know—I really want you to tell me what that means. Like, it sounds almost like a silly question, but like, what does it mean to actually savor a moment? Is there a practice? Is it being present with it? Is it—like, what does that mean?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Okay, I'm gonna give you an example and start with the negative form in that, because we're so much more familiar with rumination, yes, right? About the negativity bias. Like when we feel any kind of discomfort or pain, it's much more hardwired for us to figure out why. And we story it in some—we know, in terms of just cognitive behavioral therapy, sometimes we're right and sometimes we're wrong, the stories that we come up with. Yeah. More like we're—yeah, it could be the temperature. Like, you know, "I'm warm, I'm thirsty." All the—we story all of our discomfort, anything that's going on.
So things more serious—an awkward conversation at work. We're thinking about all the things: "What did I say? What did she say? What went into that? What's it about?" Right? Like, we just—and so we're driving home and we're processing what we need to do about that or why it happened, beating ourselves up about what we could have done different, what we could have said, what we should have said, what's it all about, right? And so that's the rumor—that's the negative—that's the rumination.
But how often do you have a colleague come into your office and you have this really generative conversation where they walk in and you solve a problem and you're like, "Yeah! Oh yeah, great!" And you're just, you know, you're in sync. You have a little bit of banter in the beginning, you have something fun, you feel connected, right? And then something generative happens where you get whatever you needed to be done, and you both leave feeling energized. You both have what you need to succeed, and you go on with your day. Have you driven home and storied and been curious and thought about all the reasons that went right? Why? What happened in that moment? What had you done in the weeks or months prior, or even the day, to build that healthy connection? How had you invested in that person or made that person feel seen? What do you have in common? How have you nurtured that relationship? What was your body language? You know, when the person turned in, you greeted—you know, you were open, you didn't keep your head down. What—all these things. Being curious about all that went right in terms of how you responded. What was your body language? What do you have in common? Why do you enjoy working with that person? Should you be working with more people like that person? Or, you know? And because you're gonna know why you don't like working with someone. You could talk about their qualities that are difficult for you. Yeah. But can you as easily name the qualities and the reasons why a work relation—I'm just using a work relationship as an example—is working?
And so savoring is about noticing these micro-moments and the wins in a day. Because again, they don't have to be gigantic, but we're storing a little—maybe an awkward moment at the water cooler kind of thing. Yeah, that's true. Are we storing and being curious about the wins?
And so savoring is thinking about the things that went right, the things that brought you energy or joy or satisfaction in the day, and figuring out—it's fun to story it. I just—I really just want to keep using that word because it's giving it some more color. So instead of just saying, "That was a nice conversation," you might say, "I enjoyed the creativity. I appreciated her—you know, she brought some optimism to it. I enjoy her perspective," you know? Like, give just a little more language, a little more color, some texture in describing to yourself and sitting with the things that you appreciate, that you enjoy, just being on a team, you know? Like, "I really noticed—I've been doing a lot of solitary projects. I'm enjoying working with some people, and I'm noticing that in my day, those are some of my highlights."
So this is important information when you're thinking about how you are investing your time in what projects, if you have those choices of whether you're doing more independent work or more collaboration. So you're building your future in your work, then, you know, the things that bring you the most energy.
One more example for me with love as an example, because this is something we also share. This doesn't surprise me. Well, no. And when I ended up in a leadership position and I had less interaction with patients and families and people and administrative stuff that does not bring me joy, I had to make a conscious effort. And sometimes that just meant I would get up and do a walk, and I might talk to the receptionist and look at a picture of her puppy or, you know, see a patient. And by the time—a five-minute walk around the clinic or ten-minute break, I had gathered some energy, and I had a language for it.
So I think we do some of that intuitively, yes. But part of this science is understanding it better and doing some of it more consciously and purposefully and then noticing and savoring the energy that you get and understanding what really makes you happy. And again, not this superficial, ungrounded happiness. This is about real well-being and how you kind of, at the end of the day, can decide that you had more positive experiences than negative ones. Because if you're only storying the negative, you might have had five wins, or 80% of your day went pretty smoothly. You're hitting targets, you're talking with people, you had great conversations. You have one negative one, and you spend all your time processing that one and not understanding what went right and how you might apply that wisdom to the difficult conversation.
Casey Berglund:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I love this. There's a really nerdy part of me that wants to know specifically what's happening in the brain and the nervous system and the body when we story positive outcomes.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
But it's the same. So savoring is creating new neural networks. And so how our brain works is making associations and categorizing information. So we put like things with like things, and that's part of why, in terms of negativity bias, we're trying to recognize how not for that to happen again, yeah? Right. But we can create neural networks that are positive that help the good things happen more. And again, it's what we attend to.
And so I love this example. I had a woman tell me in this workshop that she had woken up that morning and heard birds chirping, and that it reminded her of spring, and that she was excited that her kids were gonna be getting out of school. And she painted this really beautiful picture about the birds chirping outside. And fair enough, you know, it's great. The next morning when I woke up, before thinking anything, I heard birds chirping. Wow. My brain had pinned it, so she had painted such a picture and been so clear that the next morning my brain said, "Oh, you heard about the birds. You like the birds. Here they are." And that's what our brain does.
So when we savor and we name and we give context to what we like and why, our brain says, "Okay, I'll find more of that for you." And it does it subconsciously. Our autonomic nervous system will seek it out and start pointing it out to you. "Oh, you like that? Here's more of it." Just like it does for the negative, wow, you know, to protect us. But it will, if you put it to work for these things that you've savored, where you've told—"I like this. I want more of this to bring"—or like, and this is why, then it will, again, your brain will seek out like things and show them to you. Yeah. And—yeah, I guess—and then it gets easier. It's like, you know, it gets more and more hardwired with repetition, and then you become happier.
Casey Berglund:
Yes. Don't you—fast learner!
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
That's quite it!
Casey Berglund:
And then you feel more fulfilled, and you start to flourish in your life. And, you know, one important thing that you said there is that you had a seed planted in your brain from someone else. And so this makes me think also about who are we surrounding ourselves with and what are the seeds that we're planting in each other's brains and bodies and nervous systems, right? It's right. There's the groups of people that are always focused on the struggle and the pain and the hardship and whatever, you know? And that has its own purpose. But then when you can celebrate with other humans and you can really be present with them and hold space for them when they're telling you about something good, that's a whole other expansive...
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Experience. You are hitting on something that I am so interested in. I mean, honestly, it is so normalized that people—well, so there's that. But I also think there's this genuine thing of like, "Oh, I'm gonna connect, so I'm gonna show you my pain." And—look, we did that, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it is not as normalized to and as comfortable to talk about our wins. I mean, particularly as women, it's not seen as humility. It's not always safe to talk about, or really—maybe it's not just about "rah-rah," but about having a meaningful conversation about what's working and why, being curious. Like, I'm talking about this process, yeah, with each other. We unpack the things that we're struggling with because they are both so important. But it's not normalized. We just don't sit and say, "God, this went right. Can we sit and talk about all the things that went into making this a win? Yeah. You know, because I'm really curious about why it worked out. Yeah. And I want it to, you know, I'd like it to happen again or to do more of it. So can I talk to you about that?"
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. Wouldn't that be interesting if that was just way more normalized? You know, I'm thinking back to that conversation where we went deep. And I guess for context for the listener, this was at a party, a celebration here at Juno House. And Nicole and I had kind of crossed paths a couple times, but we hadn't really deeply connected. And then we did, and then we really went into it. And yes, we were talking about my dad, Jack, and Nicole's mom, Jane, and losing them and what that was like. And yes, we talked about how it really fucked us up in some ways. And here's what's interesting, though. I also shared with you the spiritual expansion I received and the bliss and the way in which that process brought me into unconditional love. And we slowed that down, and you asked me questions about it. And you told me stories about how you connect with your mom's energy, and I asked you questions about that. And so it's interesting to me that even through—well, what a trauma bond—even through connecting over the pain that we had shared, we also really did savor the gifts of the experiences and the wisdom and the lessons that losing parents brought to us. And so that's true. I think that that is unusual in a way, though. Maybe it's not, and I hope it to not be unusual for people to really not only see the gifts in loss but also to share about those parts of it as freely as we share about the pain.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Well, look at you. You're a master podcaster, because you led us to kind of your initial question. Yeah. And that's part of it, right? It's about being honest and considering what you are learning and how you are growing, or what beauty or strength or possibility, you know, that's planted in you through a trauma or something really difficult. I was angry, actually, about the fact that I can't deny that my life is—I am thriving more since I've lost my mom. And I wouldn't want it—you know what I mean? I wouldn't change, you know—but yeah, I can't deny that it forced me into a whole new space. And through the healing and then what I had to do to get through that, I've come out and I'm living a life more authentic to myself. I am using my gifts more. I am thriving.
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. And my experience of people that I've connected with since my dad passed who have also lost parents is—and part of that is because I probably hold a bright, positive, loving, truthful energy, right? So I'm also attracting the people who are resilient and who have expanded through a loss. And so what I want to say is that I'm having this experience over and over again of people really integrating the lessons of "death is the only fucking guarantee we have, so how are we gonna live?" And I don't know about you, but I want to flourish in this precious time that we have. There's a contrast that you get to experience by losing someone that reminds you how you could die tomorrow. And how do I want to live my life now? And how present do I want to be with people? And there is no time for a lack of authenticity. And of course, that I now understand ties into the honesty quality, value, characteristic—I think you call it. So yeah, it is interesting. What else would you say to the person who is experiencing something really hard that is bringing up feelings of anger or, you know, depression has been part of my experience in processing grief and going through lots of hard things? So how do we not bypass processing the painful emotions while also embracing some of what you've been sharing about positive psychology to support our transformation?
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
It's very important to understand that we're not looking—that it's not one or the other—that we're looking for balance. And that a lot of times what you're trying to do is find sips of energy and moments of peace and contentment, you know? Sometimes they're just micro-moments. Like I remember early after my mom died, it was very much around my dog, you know? Like just walking my dog. He was so easy to be around and so loving. Like, it's gonna make me cry, because it was just—there were not a lot of places of peace, you know. And he was just still fun for me. Like he wasn't ruined, you know? So going on—and so that didn't change my grief, but it's like if I'm making a smart decision for myself and I've gone on the walk the day before and I knew that I gained some energy—and I didn't walk as far as I normally do, and he would look back and go, "Wait, we're not going back yet. We still go this way." I'm like, "No, not today. We're not going that far." So, but I went, right?
And so you notice the little thing, and it does take a little extra effort when we're depressed, but to say, "The walk stays. I'm gonna try and go on," you know? And it only has to be five minutes or ten minutes. You can set parameters around it, depending on what you can handle. But notice the things—you know, what rituals, what things you can do, and in any measure, that are sips of energy and joy that you can use to put towards facing, healing. So if we're too overwhelmed, we know we just shut down, yeah? And we stuff. And so this isn't ignoring the grief. It's trying to pull some energy together to be able to face it and to do it, because it's hard work to process the grief and to sort of face it and be clear with it.
And so it's understanding—so I'll tell you, mine are honesty, love, kindness, social intelligence, and leadership. And so I used my honesty to be ugly in my grief.
Casey Berglund:
Everyone knows. I wasn't—I was messy. This is what I loved about you when we were talking about it. You kept saying, "I was fucked."
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Like, I was messy. And my mom's—about, you know, like they were—not crying. I mean, I was crying all the time. I mean, I was a mess. Okay. But I was honest, and I mean, that's—and I let it out. And I think there's—so anyways, love—letting people love me. It wasn't easy. I was so angry. But finding connection and still spending time with people, even though I didn't always want to. And I mean, please hear me—I understand sometimes I didn't. Yeah. But it's like if I completely isolate, I'm gonna wilt. I had to, you know, share some love. And then kindness—one thing that I, you know, for me was realizing that doing for others was still important, being of service. And so when I got back to work, I would notice, you know, an hour might go by when I was really engaged and helping somebody else where I could get out of myself. And so, and being honest instead of being a martyr and saying, "I should—I don't want to be nice to anyone. I want to do anything for anyone. Just help me." It was like I really was clear that part of the way I was gonna get through was to do for others, right?
And so everybody has it. If you have your character strengths, you really know your values, then you try in the day to put them to use and to use them and to glean some energy that can help balance out the pain that you're experiencing. It's just not one or the other. I think we all have felt that if I experience a moment of happiness, does this mean that my pain isn't real or that—is it disrespectful? And the answer is absolutely no.
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. Thank you for this. Thank you so much for sharing this positive psychology 101 and kind of the history of it. And what I'm really taking away is I'm going to do that assessment. And actually, the more we talk about it, the more I'm like, "Wait, was this the exact tool that my therapist friend in Canada sent around our girl group to take so that we could discuss what our top qualities were?" I think it might have been the exact assessment.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
I love that.
Casey Berglund:
So I'm gonna double-check and link it for everyone to take. Yeah, we'll link it for people to take. And then what I'm hearing you say is really knowing those characteristics and leaning into them and noticing how you feel when you're in that optimal zone of embodying those characteristics and savoring those moments of what's going right is part of what creates the flourishing that we're looking for. Yes. And we can lean on those characteristics even when things are really hard. Like I'm thinking about some really low moments when I was alone here in Spain. Eric was gone flying his plane. I hadn't met anyone yet. I hadn't found Juno yet. And I was experiencing depression. Like I couldn't get out of bed, and I was like, "Whoa." And I called my friend Sydney Whatadeer, who also lost her dad a few years prior. And she was like, "Little things—can you get up and have a shower?" And I did. I got up and had a shower. And then I told her about it. And that in and of itself was connection. That was love, love. That was also truth, right? And the water also felt really good on my body. And I was like, "Okay, I stood up." And then I walked up the stairs, and I got a coffee from the local little spot. And I sat outside with my coffee, and I savored my coffee. And so I'm thinking about the ways that this was by default the only way through, you know? And that was all I could do. Yeah. But that was a way of leaning on those characteristics without even realizing that I was.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
And so we do it so naturally. You describe this beautifully. And so part of the fun of this now is that you might just smile to yourself and say, "Well, that was my love. I reached out, and I did feel better when I talked to my friend. It's not all fixed, but you name it." So naming it and understanding it and just smiling to yourself. "And I was so honest. I was really vulnerable with her." And so—see, you just—you're doing it. And you give it more of a story, and you smile to yourself, and that's savoring and understanding a little better. And then you think about, "What could I do tomorrow that's kind of similar along that?" "I'm gonna drop her a text and thank her and keep that connection or tell her what a difference it made." And then you just build. And with the character strengths, the last thing to partner with what you're saying—it's that these are superpowers. These are your strengths. And so it's also really fun to think about how you can apply them intentionally when you have a problem to solve. You're like, "How could I use my honesty to make this better? How could I use my love? And how can I get even more courageous?" Yeah. And more clear. And then because I'm gonna grow exponentially when I learn the power of my honesty, when I show up courageously, when I model this authenticity, how much it impacts other people, makes them feel safe and seen and creates these kind of spaces. And so you can apply them not just to surviving...
Casey Berglund:
Yeah. Thank you. And I'm just imagining for the people that I know are shifting careers or figuring out what's next or wanting more purposeful work, this is a pathway for that too. So I'm so grateful for you sitting with me today and sharing your wisdom. And I learned so much from you today, so I appreciate that. And I'll make sure that all of the information about how people can work deeply with you is all in the show notes, so we'll make sure that they have what they need.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Everyone can take the VIA. It's free. I'm excited to talk about it with you. If others don't, you can support each other. Yes. And you talk about that—getting, normalizing talking about strengths and the things that you value about yourself and each other. It's so fun when you share it with a friend, like we just did right now when you're like, "I totally see the honesty." I could give stories and examples and share how you experience those strengths. And then witnessing that and storing it with friends is so powerful. Yeah. I've had all my friends...
Casey Berglund:
We're all gonna do this. We're just gonna create ripples of...
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
Yeah. And you can do it with your partners, and you can do it with your parents. And you'd be like, "Oh, that's, you know..." Yeah, it's interesting. Amazing.
Casey Berglund:
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr. Nicole Andreatta:
You're welcome. Thank you.
